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 Post subject: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:30 pm 
Skull Crusher
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I'm sure a similar issue/question has been brought up before, and if so, I'll shamelessly be starting a new topic about it. In any case, it is my understanding that in the spirit of the rules, armor is supposed to inhibit body movement in some way, thus giving reason to grant the extra hit point from blues and imperviousness to single greens. Recently, I've come across a few pieces of leather armor (on the torso, which makes it worse) in which the armor is not cumbersome in the slightest, but still passes all requirements (namely, thickness). I was wondering if there is possibly some way to eliminate this issue?

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:27 pm 
Brute
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I thought it was supposed to be a weight disadvantage.

In any case, properly made armor should not inhibit your motion and or fighting ability. I have seen guys in full SCA plate do cartwheels.

Regardless of which, until we require armor to actually be protective in some way, we will always have cheese armor.

I am currently making Lamellar armor, its light, easy to wear, doesn't inhibit your movements at all. It's quite literally about as restrictive as a jacket. The best part is that its actually protective and will protect you from getting hurt when you get hit.

Cheese isn't necessary to have great armor, but as long as its cheaper to do a leather weave with soft six ounce strips, people are still going to keep doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:09 pm 
Skull Crusher
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Weight would inhibit body motion, in that it would make the person wearing the armor move slower. But I'd be for making the requirements of armor more stringent, at least requiring all leather armor to be hardened.

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:18 pm 
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It is in no part of the spirit of the rules for armor to inhibit motion. Armor is suposed to be made of certain materials and cover certain percentages of your body, that is all.
Finely crafted and well fitted plate weighs relativly little and allows maximum movement. Good flat ring chain wieghs about 17lbs for a mid thigh shirt with 3/4 sleeves for a 48" chest(that fits me). it inhibits NO motion and 17 lbs is less than my garb if I'm wearing that big green coat I wear when it's cold.
If you armor lets you move freely and is legal, GOOD. you win at armor.
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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:03 am 
Skull Crusher
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I suppose you would have to see for yourself the armor I've seen. To quote Soo Ma Tai from another thread:

Quote:
TO gain the advantage of armor, there has to be a disadvantage. The disadvantage is weight, thus the requirement for thickness.


There is no disadvantage to these pieces which I've come across. They literally fit the wearers like a t-shirt, and they probably weigh little more than that, as well. But otherwise, they're completely legal. I'm sure other fighters have come across other such forms of cheese in the past. The way I see it, these pieces of armor are in violation of everyone's favorite BoW rule:

BoW wrote:
Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:38 am 
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If you're referring to the armor at BftR ... Fork, this was some serious cheese armor. I doubt that it actually passes, though I was informed that it does ... It must be layers of really thin leather, though it didn't look like more then one ...

How did you guys check it to determine if it passed?


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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:44 am 
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any pics of it?

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:48 am 
Skull Crusher
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That's not a question for me, actually. Sad to say, i didn't have as active a role in gear check as I would have normally liked to, as I was busy with heralding business. From what I remember, Dash was put in charge of checking armor for at least one of the days. The thickness of the leather/layering is not the problem, it's the weight of the leather itself that is cause for concern.

Kage, i will try to find some pics.

Edit: Some Pics!

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:08 am 
Slayer
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First guys armor-vest-vinyl-thing probably does fail. The stuff Rooster is wearing looks okay from the pics.

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:27 am 
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just remember guys, weapons/armor checkers always have the say in what counts and what doesn't. if you tell that first pic to take off his bad fake armor it sets the standard higher. Also I would very gladly take a ruler to that and show them its not 3/8s of an inch thick. Its two 1/8s peices sewnish together and they are praying on surface gapping to cover the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:30 am 
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I'd agree with Kage here, first looks too thin, second is prolly ok.

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:31 am 
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Varadin wrote:
just remember guys, weapons/armor checkers always have the say in what counts and what doesn't. if you tell that first pic to take off his bad fake armor it sets the standard higher. Also I would very gladly take a ruler to that and show them its not 3/8s of an inch thick. Its two 1/8s peices sewnish together and they are praying on surface gapping to cover the rest.

3/16" is the magic number.

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:51 pm 
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my bad, still doubt that is thick enough. I know that 2 pieces of standard garment leather wasnt enough the last time i measured. My point still stands though.

If you fail cheese before it hits the field, no one else will look at it and be like "OHH thats a great idea" and make a second suit. They then build off each other using lines like "well his passes so should mine" ... bad armor is like zombies.


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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:53 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:48 am 
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Here's the poop.
The first one need to be measured. It looks too thin. But it could pass. 2 layers of 6oz leather make 12oz. That is legal. The thing is, it probly isn't 6oz everywhere. This is the place where calipers come in. I would have most likely fail this.
The second look like its made from one layer of 12 oz. Provided it IS 12 EVERYWHERE, with none of the thin spots that ALWAYS are in ANY peice of leather.Again, calipers.
As head herald, you can override the armor checker decision, but I wouldn't without calipers or some other way to really measure the armor in several places.

Sadly, this is completely legal provided the leather is 3/16" in 2 layers or less. Thems the rules and I don't think we're going to get them channged.
Soo's opinion that armor need to have some disadvantage is just that, his opinion. Not the rules. The rules require material, thickness and coverage, nothing else.
And might I ad that this is what we **** get when we do not have a quality standard. I feel that the first armor should fail just for looking horrible and having huge gaps and generally beinng NOTHING like armor. Hell, it isn't even an effective leather jacket. Utter ****.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Spirit of the Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:56 pm 
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Forkbeard wrote:
I feel that the first armor should fail just for looking horrible and having huge gaps and generally beinng NOTHING like armor. Hell, it isn't even an effective leather jacket. Utter ****.
FB

I quite agree; Blunt Force Trauma are the key words in this game. There's no slashing damage, so it really boils down to BFA. That **** wouldn't in any way stop a stab either. I could understand if it was like, suede and had studs spaced every inch, that would at least be feasible, but that just looks like poopy booty.

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