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 Post subject: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:28 am 
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An issue came up recently where I was inspired to re-read the BoW to clarify a ruling we had made, only to find that the answer was not there at all. So I went to a few trusted sources of wisdom and found that there was enough disparity in the answers I was given to warrant making a post about it for all of us to ponder. To illustrate I would like to put forth a hypothetical battle between our friends Bob and Tom.

Tom and Bob are fighting. Tom is wearing armor. Bob grabs Tom's weapon in a 'safe' manner (safe meaning no limb damage). Tom takes this as a grapple initiation on Bob's part and grapples back. Bob says that he grabbing Tom's weapon is not a grapple initiation and thus Tom was doing an illegal action.

What I am putting to question is where does a grapple start and whether or not one's equipment can be (should be) used as an extension of the body for such an occasion.

I for one have always interpreted my gear as an extension of my body and any attempt made to grab and manipulate either me or my gear constitutes returned grappling rights if I happen to be wearing armor.

For easy reference here is the grappling section from the BoW.

3.6. Grappling is allowed.
3.6.1. Combatants may initiate Grapples with opponents according to the following rules:
3.6.1.1. A Combatant wearing no Armor may Grapple all opponents.
3.6.1.2. A Combatant wearing Leather Armor may Grapple any Armored opponent, but not unarmored opponents.
3.6.1.3. A Combatant wearing Chain Armor may Grapple opponents wearing Chain or Plate Armor.
3.6.1.4. A Combatant wearing plate Armor may not initiate a Grapple.
3.6.2. A Combatant wearing plastic safety equipment is treated as leather Armor for grappling purposes only.
3.6.3. No throws, unarmed strikes, or joint/nerve holds. Grappling to the head/neck is not allowed.
3.6.4. Combatants with Missile Weapons (Type 4, bow/arrows) may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:46 am 
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grabbing someones equipment is NOT grappling.

You can drop your equipment thus ending the situation. Grabbing a person is a grapple as two partys are fully involved.

Since this is in discussion Ill ask this question since ive seen people flip flop.

Is a open palm push a grapple? what about a body check?


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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:38 am 
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While I agree that grabbing the equipment and only the equipment is not technically grappling, if you make body to body contact with me, you've accepted grappling and I would expect the same from anyone else on the field.

The argument about "initiating a grapple in armor" goes out the window when your arm is pressing down over my shoulder, your chest is pressed into my torso, etc.

Meh, I couldn't write that sentence without it sounding quasi-sexual. :P

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:48 am 
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Varadin wrote:
Is a open palm push a grapple? what about a body check?


The definition of the word grapple means to grab or seize.

This is not intended to be rude to you Varadin just a general statement as I've seen it a lot lately, but I find it funny how so many people don't bother to learn what words actually mean.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:47 am 
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You'll notice that the Book of War doesn't much care what the dictionary definition of a word is or isn't.

Grabbing my equipment is not grappling, therefore you may do it in armor, sure. Is a weapon grab an invitation for me to grapple you that would invalidate your cries of foul play if I were wearing armor and then did grab you?

It would depend on the situation to me. If I'm spearing and a guy grabs the haft behind the head, no, it's not an invitation to grapple.

If I'm swinging a mace and you grab the haft inches from my hand, yeah, that's you saying you're comfy getting up-close-and-personal with me; if I'm wearing armor or not, I'm grappling you if I think it's the most advantageous move and you shouldn't * if I do.

Varadin: I don't think either should be considered grappling, but perhaps unarmed contact should be regulated separately. Body checking and train-wreck-style bashing are an implicit part of our culture, but they aren't regulated in any way and you know folks get hurt by 300# dudes in 50 pounds of armor running them over...


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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
You'll notice that the Book of War doesn't much care what the dictionary definition of a word is or isn't.


You are correct, but it also doesn't define it in it's own terms, thus defaulting back to the next available source. But that is not all that important.

Just out of curiosity Arrakis, if a rule where to come out of this how would you go about wording it to differentiate the situation.

I agree with you totally by the way, spears and the other polearms are one of those weird places where this is concerned as it would make writing a rule for it much more difficult. Not saying that there needs to be one, as I kinda doubt this comes up all that often, but [insert words I'm looking for, but can't seem to find at the moment.] you know.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:47 am 
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I agree completely with Arrakis' interpretation.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:39 am 
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If someone's grabs your weapon, it should be considered initiating a grapple, regardless if they "touch" you or not. Even if its the end of your spear. The rule might need more clarification because some people might call people on it.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Sleeper wrote:
If someone's grabs your weapon, it should be considered initiating a grapple, regardless if they "touch" you or not. Even if its the end of your spear. The rule might need more clarification because some people might call people on it.


I like how your interpretation allows one to initiate a grapple from as far as 12 feet away.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Grapple: grap·ple Verb:
Engage in a close fight or struggle without weapons; wrestle.
Seize hold of (someone).

I think that's self explanatory no? If you grab (verb: to take hold suddenly or with a jolting motion; bind.) someone you're grappling.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:08 pm 
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In the dictionary, grapple is not limited to seizing "someone." It can be a person or a thing. It can mean wrestling or grabbing something.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/grapple
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/grapple

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:31 am 
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PhotoJoe wrote:
Sleeper wrote:
If someone's grabs your weapon, it should be considered initiating a grapple, regardless if they "touch" you or not. Even if its the end of your spear. The rule might need more clarification because some people might call people on it.


I like how your interpretation allows one to initiate a grapple from as far as 12 feet away.

Glad you liked it...

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:57 pm 
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While we're busy worrying about definitions, let's have someone notice a certain rule, the reasoning behind it, and the flaws with it:

3.6.4. Combatants with Missile Weapons (Type 4, bow/arrows) may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.

The reasoning and implications of this rule are probably largely for the sake of making sure nobody grabs a bow - by that though, if grappling includes weapons, that's covered, but if not, there's a problem and an addendum needs to be made.
Additionally, javelins are type 4 weapons, so by the *wording* (not the spirit) of the rule, there's another problem with it...

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:24 pm 
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Kasada wrote:
While we're busy worrying about definitions, let's have someone notice a certain rule, the reasoning behind it, and the flaws with it:

3.6.4. Combatants with Missile Weapons (Type 4, bow/arrows) may not initiate Grapples or be Grappled.

The reasoning and implications of this rule are probably largely for the sake of making sure nobody grabs a bow - by that though, if grappling includes weapons, that's covered, but if not, there's a problem and an addendum needs to be made.
Additionally, javelins are type 4 weapons, so by the *wording* (not the spirit) of the rule, there's another problem with it...


I've always heard that the point was to make sure no one tossed anyone onto their quiver full of arrows with their pointy, dangerous nocks or got their eyes too close to the tips of an archer's bow.

Archers who don't clear their bows out of the way instantly when someone moves to melee range are the worst.

We should probably get rid of the one-hit0shield rule for bows (allowing instead any blue or red shot to the bow to kill the archer instantly) to encourage archers to get their pointy, dangerous, unpadded **** out from between them and their attacker.

It's not safe for those of us who spend battles running down archers. I've been stabbed in the thigh with a bow tip when running down an archer who didn't want to just die before. It's unsafe.


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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:02 pm 
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I agree entirely that archers should not get that bow block. We play by the BOW in my realm, but we force everyone to practice "ditching" their bow and quiver before becoming "Archer certified" on our field. Once they learn, they don't have to do it, but we will make them spend a practice running and ditching to show them how important it is. As for grappling, I have always interpreted this as applying to anyone holding any archery equipment, even if they are just tossing an arrow aside.

As for the rest, I think grabbing a person's weapon (Under 48") should count as grappling because it does initiate taking it to a different level. Grabbing longer polearms doesn't really feel like initiating a grapple.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 1:48 pm 
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So, when people grab my big six foot redsword, they're not grappling? Strange....
(which is some BS, if some unarmoured fighter tries to grab my sword, I can't grapple back because he didn't "initiate" a grapple? Bull....)

As for the archer thing, yes, you shouldn't be able to block with them.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 9:56 am 
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Grabbing a weapon is not starting a grapple.
That has always been the established rule.
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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:21 pm 
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New topic started on the subject of bows as one hit shields.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:15 pm 
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I came across this question in a private forum. I've extracted my input on the issue and cross-posted it here. It is only my side of a two party conversation, but it should make sense in context.

[cross-post]
I've consulted my stack of rule books, here is my historical take on the issue. My old Dur-D handbook, dated on the cover to 1994, given to me in April of 1997 gives only a slight mention to grappling in the armor section. My Dur-D handbook dated 2001, labeled rev 11-01 says:
"[3.6.1] Grappling is defined as wrestling in a safe and reasonable manner, individuals struggle hand to hand, attempting to subdue or unbalance the other without strikes, throws or joint/nerve holds. A good example is high school wrestling.
[3.6.5] A good clean body check is allowed."
I'll also note that these two rulebooks state specifically that initiating a grapple in armor is disallowed; they were written long before we made the change that allowed tiered armor initiation.

My personal take on it is that grabbing a weapon is *NOT* grappling. Think about it in terms of not an axe, but a 10-foot spear... if I grab that spear to pull it out of the hands of the one wielding it, did I start a 'grapple'? No. Absolutely not. Not until I make my body contact theirs, and even then it depends on the type of contact.
Our current Book of War says:
"3.6.3. No throws, unarmed strikes, or joint/nerve holds."
but makes no mention of the 'good clean body check' that my 2001 rule book mentions. So, is a 'good clean body check' grappling or is it something else? I really wouldn't care for a guy in a metal breastplate body bumping me when I am unarmored... but at the same time, what if it were accidental contact; what if he didn't see me and just ran into me while he were running? Even under the old rules, is that grappling? He didn't do anything specific, he was just running and we collided and I fell down. Where exactly is the grapple 'initiated' in that case?

What about a good sharp push. If I shove someone to the ground but never *grab* them, is that a 'grapple'? What about if I trip someone, a' la the 'Improved Trip feat of D&D'? I could do either of these with a weapon/shield, so what separates them from grappling? If I use my hands is it grappling, but a weapon it is not? Or am I initiating a grapple by shield bashing someone?

There are a lot of things that look like grappling that are not.

My real question is, when does a struggle over a weapon become a grapple? I contend that simply tugging on a weapon does not constitute a grapple. But at what level of contact between players does it become an actual grapple. Does any incidental contact make it a grapple? e.g. we struggle over a weapon, fall to the ground and our bodies touch, but all of our direct force and attention is focused on the weapon. Or is one required to attempt some level of direct control over an opponents body? And then what type of control constitutes a grapple?

It is. And that is a relevant point. But I take 'Hand on Weapon' to be a playability concession: it is difficult to tell if you hit someone's hand or their sword... so to prevent people from twinking and or bickering about it, we just said that it was 'legal twinking' by making the 'Hand on Weapon' and 'Foot on Ground' rules.

By your logic about gear, the ground is also an extension of your body ad infinitum. I could ask all sorts of silly questions about that, but I'm sure you get the point.
[/cross-post]

And that's it. There was some talk in there about dictionary definitions. But it seems the consensus of this thread is that a dictionary definition doesn't apply.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:17 pm 
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Still lame. I had to stop myself from grabbing someone's glaive (he wasn't to good) because he was unarmoured. Only problem I see is it can go into a grapple very quick and since I was the one to grab their weapon, they could say I initiated a grapple on an unarmoured opponent, with me being armoured. I think it should be clarified more, namely to stop bad calls being made.

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:27 pm 
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On topic, are controlled leg sweeps where you guide them to the ground legal? Also, let's say someone's running at you and you duck and they flip over you? Legal, or rude?

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:20 pm 
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Ok I love grappling...
Don't be a idiot..
If someone grapples a spear don't run up your spear and grab them.
If I am fighting red and some grabs my handle to try and stop me from swinging its on like donkey kong... There is a difference of 8 inches and 8 feet...

A weapon is considered piece of your equipment and a grapple to a weapons is the same as a grapple to the body or arms... Spear argument aside...

Point case example if fighter a is wearing a back shield and fighter b who is wearing armor horse collars said fighter by only grabbing his shield and in the process falls over fighter a, he has not initiated the grapple? That's silly... Fighter b initiated the grapple. Same concept for grabbing a sword...

High school wrestling is acceptable because all takedowns must be done in a controlled manner.

If you don't like rough play call yourself dead, otherwise it's buyer beware if you grapple with me and I come down on you like a controlled hurricane...

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 Post subject: Re: How to interpret a grapple...
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2013 7:40 pm 
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As an example, Sir Kyrian grapples my flail from me bu gabbing the haft, wrestling it away, and prying it out of my hands. At no time did he come in contact with me, but he was definitely trying to wrench the weapon from my grip. I was in armor; admittedly, I was very new at the time, and didn't respond.

Some months later, at another event, Sir Kegg attempted the same maneuver, and we ended up wrestling on the ground for the weapon...again, he not armored, me armored.

These situations were the same in my mind; a close combat encounter to attempt to disarm me. Notice I said "close" - not at the end of a spear. That being said, if I, unarmored, grab a spear, I fully expect the armored spearman to resist, up to wrestling with me to get the weapon away. I INITIATED the entire event.

That's the point. You do not have to grapple in this game, you can very easily slip away. If you try and grab someone's equipment, you are now initiating a situation where we may come into contact. "Grappling" for a weapon doesn't need to cause two people to actually touch, but you're still going strength to strength to take a weapon away; in that situation, I'm sorry, an armored opponent has the right to fight back, same as anyone else. THEY DID NOT INITIATE THE SITUATION.

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