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 Post subject: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Splitting off of the grappling discussion, it was brought up that we may want to change the wording of 3.8.1. in the BoW.

The basic suggestion, which I think would be a good idea, would be to eliminate the ability of people to use bows as a one hit shield.

As currently written: If a bow is struck by a Class 1 or 2 Weapon, it is considered broken and cannot be used.

Perhaps change to: If a bow is struck by a Class 1 or 2 Weapon, the strike is considered to have caused one hit of injury to the limb holding the bow.

Or maybe: If a bow is struck by a Class 1 or 2 Weapon, the strike is considered to have caused two points of combat damage to the torso of the archer holding it.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Makes a lot more sense realism-wise. I mean, if an archer can call you dead or take away a limb from you because they shot your weapon, seems a step in the right direction to alleviating some of the ridiculous OP powers archers have.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Terrible idea for a rule change. I see more broken bows from retards intentionally trying to hit the bow instead of the person as free hit to the person. Terrible terrible idea; and I know for a fact every decent fighter in this sport would back me up in that thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 12:14 am 
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No.

Sorry, long answer: Really no.

The ability to break bows is an important, game balancing aspect of the rules.

Everyone gripes about how over powered archery is, now you want to take away the one method of crippling archers?

The rule isn't intended to provide archers with a one-hit shield, despite the fact that is how many play it.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:56 am 
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Encouraging people to hit bows is bad.
Allowing to archers to use bows as one hit shields is also bad.
Right now, people actively TRY to hit bows just to stop archers from shooting. I've seen this go wrong more than once. i hit a guys bow into his knee hard enough to take him out for the day just last fall.
Perhaps a more passive rule change would be better. Like,"If a bow is struck, the weapon is considered to have continued through to do normal damage to the target under it."? Kinda like the rule for when weapons get shot by arrows?
I dunno, just brainstormin
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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:14 pm 
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How about "Bows should not be intentionally struck in combat and archers should attempt to prevent them from being hit. Any incidental hit to a bow is considered to do no damage (or some damage? or damage to both parties?), but intentionally blocking with a bow causes ... something?"


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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
How about "Bows should not be intentionally struck in combat and archers should attempt to prevent them from being hit. Any incidental hit to a bow is considered to do no damage (or some damage? or damage to both parties?), but intentionally blocking with a bow causes ... something?"
If bows being struck is truly a problem, then this (^) is a better solution.

Anything that punishes the archer for his bow being hit (broken or carrying through) encourages others to hit that bow. If safety trumps realism, then we should say that incidental strikes to the bow cause no penalty to either party, intentional strikes to the bow cause death to the striker, and intentional blocks with the bow cause death to the one wielding the bow. I'm not seeing this as a legitimate issue though, but this is how to fix it if it is decided to be one.

We could eventually go so far as to say that no one is allowed within 10 feet of an archer or the archer is automatically killed to prevent accidental grappling, hitting, or bow breakage and associated injury. We could even put them in their own cordonned off section of the field from which they could fire and be shot at, but never come into contact with other fighters. Maybe even their own camping areas.......just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Tiberius Claudius wrote:
If safety trumps realism, then we should say that incidental strikes to the bow cause no penalty to either party, intentional strikes to the bow cause death to the striker, and intentional blocks with the bow cause death to the one wielding the bow.


Something like that would be fair if archers that I know of actually used the bow as the one hit shield. Most prefer to keep their bows in one piece so they do what they can to keep them from getting hit. I can see a lot of angry melee guys throwing a fit when a Marshal like me calls them dead for intentionally hitting a bow even if its light because it's in the rules.

Arrakis wrote:
How about "Bows should not be intentionally struck in combat and archers should attempt to prevent them from being hit. Any incidental hit to a bow is considered to do no damage (or some damage? or damage to both parties?), but intentionally blocking with a bow causes ... something?"


Believe it or not this is almost what we currently use. see rule 3.8.1 A hit to a bow is considered to have broken the bow. Even accidental hits count here, and because of such most archers try to protect the bow. And if an archer does block with a bow intentionally the bow is broken and cannot be used.

Going to do a small rewrite of your post Arrakis to show exactly what I mean. Not trying to be picking on you either; just to show.

Bows can be intentionally stuck in combat, and archers usually attempt to prevent them from being hit. Any incidental hit to a bow is considered to have damaged the bow breaking it, also intentionally blocking with a bow causes the bow to become broken.

Honestly I don't this this is really much of an issue and no changes need to be made. However if it is; a rule change would need to protect the archer and his/her equipment more than the melee guy. **** deal but the cost of a single bow is more than probably 3 times what my entire amount of equipment would cost me to replace.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:45 am 
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I use a bow as a one hit shield. I've done it many, many times, on purpose.
I know for a fact other archers you know, Kage, do it to. I've seen them. Hell, I learned it from watching people around here.
It's legal and in a pinch, it gives you the extra step you need to get the **** out of there when you get rushed.
I got my bow from the a kid who found it in the trash behind an archery store.
But I only do it because I can. I've always thought it was stupid and dangerous and should probly be illegal.
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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:51 am 
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I do not think any changes should include "the person who strikes a bow intentionally is declared dead".
I am not in favor of any changes. I think you should tell people if they block with their bow, it may explode and send shrapnel into their eyes.

You can NOT create an incentive out of hitting a bow either...so having the bow break and do damage to the archer is a bad idea.

The current rule we have does break the bow...but so does killing the archer. Why hit the guy twice when you can kill him with one shot by avoiding the bow?

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:57 pm 
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It's not a question of "why hit the bow then the archer when you can just kill the archer".
As I clearly stated, I block with my bow to give me the chance to get away. I stick it out in front of the shot. And lots of other folks do it to.
I'm all for leaving the rules as is. This is just a place some one clever COULD maybe come up with some wording to make things safer.
I don't care either way.
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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:24 pm 
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If your so worried about it change it so if a bow is it they have to take that arm.
It's as stupid a rule as allowing arrows that deflect off of weapons be kill-shots. I'm not advocating actively swatting arrows out of the air, but seriously; you shoot an arrow and it hits a weapon that's static, it's ridiculous to allow the shooter to call the person dead. Ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:48 pm 
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There seems to be two concerns here:
1) Archers that cheat. When I see several people say that our current 'carry through' rule is broken, I can't help but think of the archers I see no-look shooting over a shield wall and shouting dead before the arrow is even out of the bow.

2) Archers that use their bow defensively as intended.

RE point 1, this is cheating. Maybe we should start calling people out on this. The current rule is 100x better than when I started (when an archer could shoot the tip of your red 4' over your head and call arm or death, whichever they were feeling at the time).

RE point 2, if this is really a safety concern (which I don't agree it is), then maybe we should change the rules back to no grappling in armor also. We can't be more liberal about people choosing to take a minor safety risk in one place and then tell them they cannot make a similar choice elsewhere. Because this is what we are talking about here, archers making a choice to put their bow in danger when melees make a choice to strike at an archer. Both are making a tactical decision that includes the possibility of the bow exploding.

That's my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:14 pm 
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I am going to have to agree with Kage on this one. Most archers that I know have invested quite a bit of time, money and effort into their kits. With most good bows starting around $100 and each arrow running you anywhere from $10-$15, most people want to get some longevity out of their equipment. Maybe this is because I have lost a number of bows in the years that I have been fighting, so I guess I would rather protect my bow than letting it absorb a shot. Personal preference? Maybe.

While I have seen people use the bow as a shield, one of these days one of them is going to get hurt by their bow exploding/something else going wrong. If you see this happening, you should discourage people from doing it for a safety concern as Fork brought up in his first post. If people have cheap bows and are willing to risk it, fine. There really isn't anything I can do to stop them.

As to archers who call shots they don't see, or as eeach described. They are cheating. End of story.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:46 pm 
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I really feel like that's a myth. To this day I've never seen it. I've seen archers make bad calls, maybe even make the call before it hits once or twice, but never turn their head and yell without looking before the arrow strikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:49 am 
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Big King Jimmy wrote:
I really feel like that's a myth. To this day I've never seen it. I've seen archers make bad calls, maybe even make the call before it hits once or twice, but never turn their head and yell without looking before the arrow strikes.


You are lucky to have only dealt with good archers then. Ive seen that happen multiple times, normally on fields a bit more east then you come though. Ive also seen an archer lose his **** pick up weapons and "engage in honor combat" with someone he thought sluffed his arrow, he then walked across the field and fought only that person ignoring all other shots... needless to say, stupid things do happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:33 pm 
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i think having a shot to the bow cause death encourages the fighter to hit the bow. I mena it is the easiest target and now i would get the most bang from it.

I fail to see the gobs of people doing it, i see it once a day at an event. this is pretty far down my list of saftey worries.

the best rule would be to say if the archer intentionally blocks with the bow, the are disallowed from arching for the day. if a weapon strikes the bow, the possessor of the bow loses an arm as well as the possessor of the weapon that did the strike. everyone is punnished and everyone loses.

with this, the archer will not intentionally block, the fighter will not intentionall swing at the bow and all is saved for saftey.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:02 pm 
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bo1 wrote:
the best rule would be to say if the archer intentionally blocks with the bow, the are disallowed from arching for the day. if a weapon strikes the bow, the possessor of the bow loses an arm as well as the possessor of the weapon that did the strike. everyone is punnished and everyone loses.

I support this.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 10:51 pm 
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I can't remember, did this proposed change stem from an incident? How long has it been like this? I'm generally opposed to messing with rules, so I feel like a change this big needs serious justification.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 6:05 am 
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People would still swing for bows under this rule. Giving an arm to take out a bow is almost always a good trade.

I don't think this is a rule that needs to be changed. people using their bow as a one hit shield is becoming rarer these days. Bows are still going to be struck, which is where the danger is. There's no need to penalize an archer for getting hit in the bow. If someone is being unsafe about it, it should be up to the marshals to pull that person aside and talk to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:26 pm 
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Cyric wrote:
People would still swing for bows under this rule. Giving an arm to take out a bow is almost always a good trade.

I don't think this is a rule that needs to be changed. people using their bow as a one hit shield is becoming rarer these days. Bows are still going to be struck, which is where the danger is. There's no need to penalize an archer for getting hit in the bow. If someone is being unsafe about it, it should be up to the marshals to pull that person aside and talk to them.



^This.

If someone is being unsafe about it, it should be up to the marshals to pull that person aside and talk to them

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 Post subject: Re: Change to archery rules.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:45 pm 
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Still, you gotta commend an archer if they got the bawlz to fight if they get rushed, most cower and take death if a melee person gets to them.

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