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Xooyan wrote:I'd like to propose that rather than view this as a one issue topic, we start proposing a whole new set of clearly worded garb rules to avoid confusion and alleviate some of the concerns of our community.
Juniper Wynd wrote:
They are ~not~ safety equipment in any sense of the word. I'm a big chested woman that often wears a regular bra plus a sports bra for support so I know these things pretty well. They are as much "safety equipment" as your underwear. Safety equipment is meant to prevent you from injury.....like safety goggles or a cup. Exactly what injury does a piece of fabric protect you from?
At this point you ~cannot~ go topless, girls....put your big girl panties/safety equipment on and deal with it. But because we are prevented from going topless by public indecency laws women should be allowed the option of a sports bra with logos covered to count as minimum garb.
Juniper Wynd wrote:
....the people who don't care still won't care, the girls who wanna wear nothing but a bra and pretend its garb will still do it.
On a side note, I realized while typing a response on this topic (for the event staff of BftR), I think we should treat all clothes as garb and ban shirtless men.
Varadin wrote:"all safety equipment must be covered as best possible, if not possible safety equipment should as best match the colors of your garb"
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
1) Have a vote to back to the wording of 7 years ago - allowing sports bras as the female equivalent of topless, and then encourage people to modify them.
Arrakis wrote:2. Discussions about how we should let people fight in sports bras, t-shirts, and sweatpants without making any attempt at actual garb is one of the factors driving people to the SCA or Dagorhir right now, you know.
Caleidah wrote:Arrakis wrote:2. Discussions about how we should let people fight in sports bras, t-shirts, and sweatpants without making any attempt at actual garb is one of the factors driving people to the SCA or Dagorhir right now, you know.
This is what bugs me the most about the argument. I understand the separation of the standard, but why does anyone -want- to wear a plain sports bra? Why not make some kind of covering for it so that you don't look like some time-traveller swinging a stick and instead look like a fantasy character?
I feel the same way about all min-garb, not just sports bras. I have worn underarmor and a tabard in the past, but now that I have a sleeveless tunic, I have it covered at all times on the field at events.
Arrakis wrote:This is so dumb.
1. The rules should state "Shirtless is acceptable where allowed by law." Period. Full stop. If a lady at a Bel Realm in New York wanted to go topless at an event there, why should the Belegarth BoW have anything to say about it, so long as the rest of her garb is up to snuff and the overall appearance is congruent with the medieval fantasy feel we allege to portray?
2. Discussions about how we should let people fight in sports bras, t-shirts, and sweatpants without making any attempt at actual garb is one of the factors driving people to the SCA or Dagorhir right now, you know.
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:Horde marched to the field. Their leaders up in the air, adorned in furs and animal skulls. Women from camps chained underneath the platforms, fire-breathers & flag bearers ran about before of the procession. I have never in my life felt closer to being in a fantasy world. I will always remember that for a moment I thought so many things were possible.
Thurat wrote:I would be behind a wording that states:
"Obviously modern clothing must be disguised, modified, or otherwise blend in with and be unobtrusive to the medieval aspect or look of the overall garb."
with a slight important rewording for the legally minded:Juniper wrote:I would like to propose a change to this:
Anij Kalish wrote:I also have not gotten an answer as to why it is apparently asking so much to garb-ify a sports bra so that it would (to my understanding) comply with current rules and become a non-issue. All I have heard is "we shouldn't have to". That's like saying "because". Not really an answer...
Juniper Wynd wrote:So many people have said "I'd like to see minimum garb standards raised" and "I would never wear just a sports bra myself" but then argue for simple sports bras to pass in the same breath. Weirdness, I say! Too much diplomacy, political correctness and wanting to count everyone in. Meh.
Rocca wrote:the need for female fighters to adhere to someone else's personal opinions about what type of bra-like top is GARB-Y ENOUGH to pass as minimum garb.
I also agree with those who have said they would like to see the women of belegarth be the ones to decide on this, as it affects none of the men in bel outside of your aesthetic preferences.
Arrakis wrote:Rocca wrote:the need for female fighters to adhere to someone else's personal opinions about what type of bra-like top is GARB-Y ENOUGH to pass as minimum garb.
You realize that that's literally the entire point of having garb rules, right? That people who want to play this game have to wear a costume that is "garby enough" at the absolute minimum and that they should try harder than the minimum? And that you're trying to lower the minimum even more?
Juniper Wynd wrote:Anij Kalish wrote:I also have not gotten an answer as to why it is apparently asking so much to garb-ify a sports bra so that it would (to my understanding) comply with current rules and become a non-issue. All I have heard is "we shouldn't have to". That's like saying "because". Not really an answer...
I'm still waiting for a decent answer to this as well.
Srsly, heat stroke? I don't think wearing a sports bra is going to save someone from heat stroke versus wearing a garb passable shirt.
.
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:Shirtless men are period. Period.
The rule change that says anyone can be shirtless provided they are following local laws is our best nod to equity. After that, it's not Bel being an *, it's your government.
I have really bounced around on this debate because I can see good points on all sides. I prefer the proposal that Juniper put forward that codifies the expectation of modification for safety equipment, but does not technically require it. I prefer this because it specifies we care about making these items match garb, but it protects event coordinators, realm leaders, and others from liability and litigation.
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:Horde marched to the field. Their leaders up in the air, adorned in furs and animal skulls. Women from camps chained underneath the platforms, fire-breathers & flag bearers ran about before of the procession. I have never in my life felt closer to being in a fantasy world. I will always remember that for a moment I thought so many things were possible.
Big King Jimmy wrote:There's a difference between gender equality based on things where men and women are the same, and based on things where men and women are simply built different. I hate to say it, and I'm not meaning to come off as aggressive in the slightest there's way, there's already too much hostility, negative tones and verbal sniping, but just because you have to wear one doesn't make it the same as topless.
It's the, basically, bare minimum clothing that you can wear on your chest for a variety of reasons both legal and ethical, and I understand that. But we're not the same, and this isn't something that you can compare. In this day and age, for multiple reasons, this is a social..... I'm gonna spell this wrong.... Phopa to voice. But I really don't think this is a situation where equality is going to be the answer. Reeka from TA wears a sports bra or bikini top all the time. She made a wrap to wrap around the whole thing that is light weight and really simple.
It's NOT fair, don't take me wrong and trust me I am sorry. I'd love to get a law passed to outlaw the J-hook. And I'm sorry.
Blackwolfe wrote:Rocca, personally, if all it took was saying sports bras are the equal to men shirtless I, Talon, would vote for that in a heart beat. It won't end there for many reasons stated.
I've heard at least five men in private say "it's not my fault women can't go topless" bummer attitude, but there you go.
On that note, Sword Coast has moved to support the following change:
From:
1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable for men.
to
1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable where allowed by local law.
Eventually it will say 'nudity' but that's for a future thread.
Gaia wrote:Big King Jimmy wrote:There's a difference between gender equality based on things where men and women are the same, and based on things where men and women are simply built different. I hate to say it, and I'm not meaning to come off as aggressive in the slightest there's way, there's already too much hostility, negative tones and verbal sniping, but just because you have to wear one doesn't make it the same as topless.
It's the, basically, bare minimum clothing that you can wear on your chest for a variety of reasons both legal and ethical, and I understand that. But we're not the same, and this isn't something that you can compare. In this day and age, for multiple reasons, this is a social..... I'm gonna spell this wrong.... Phopa to voice. But I really don't think this is a situation where equality is going to be the answer. Reeka from TA wears a sports bra or bikini top all the time. She made a wrap to wrap around the whole thing that is light weight and really simple.
It's NOT fair, don't take me wrong and trust me I am sorry. I'd love to get a law passed to outlaw the J-hook. And I'm sorry.
Hey Big Jimmy! Not sure I've understood/agree with your views on equity and I did not see a proposal for offering a solution. Also, I did not think you came off as aggressive and I'm glad you recognize the issue at hand as being unfair.
Because our anatomical "sameness"/"differences" was brought into the discussion I want to make sure we're on the same page about the meaning of equality vs equity. Equality aims to treat people the same, because Belegarth is co-gender there is assumed equality...I dearly hope we don't have men in Belegarth who consider themselves inherently better than women. On the other hand equity is giving intentional advantage and consideration to one group as it is given to another. There IS an equity issue in the garb rule because one sub group (fighting women) do not have the closest socially accepted equivalent for comfortable upper body wear. Fighting men have a choice of either going topless or wearing clothes whereas women have one option, it's not even the bare minimum. It can be challenging as a man to understand this equity issue because fighting men have two choices in the matter and are the majority. Not to mention fighting men have never experienced being kicked off the field for being "topless". I firmly believe sports bras (without extra fabric) significantly reduces the heat difference during fighting to a negligible level. Therefore wearing more clothing on a sport's bra reduces a woman's competitive edge.
I would encourage you to listen to a multitude of fighting women in your area. In Oregon the fighting women unanimously agree that a sports bra should be our choice. If we address the option of neutral sports bra as bare minimum in our garb rules it will: give fighting women another option and take our sport a step closer towards garb gender "fairness"... and of course the other option is requiring men to wear something on top. I think I've said my peace so feel free to discuss the word nuances on equity/equality via facebook. I'd rather give forum space for others.
Big King Jimmy wrote:Gaia wrote:Big King Jimmy wrote:There's a difference between gender equality based on things where men and women are the same, and based on things where men and women are simply built different. I hate to say it, and I'm not meaning to come off as aggressive in the slightest there's way, there's already too much hostility, negative tones and verbal sniping, but just because you have to wear one doesn't make it the same as topless.
It's the, basically, bare minimum clothing that you can wear on your chest for a variety of reasons both legal and ethical, and I understand that. But we're not the same, and this isn't something that you can compare. In this day and age, for multiple reasons, this is a social..... I'm gonna spell this wrong.... Phopa to voice. But I really don't think this is a situation where equality is going to be the answer. Reeka from TA wears a sports bra or bikini top all the time. She made a wrap to wrap around the whole thing that is light weight and really simple.
It's NOT fair, don't take me wrong and trust me I am sorry. I'd love to get a law passed to outlaw the J-hook. And I'm sorry.
Hey Big Jimmy! Not sure I've understood/agree with your views on equity and I did not see a proposal for offering a solution. Also, I did not think you came off as aggressive and I'm glad you recognize the issue at hand as being unfair.
Because our anatomical "sameness"/"differences" was brought into the discussion I want to make sure we're on the same page about the meaning of equality vs equity. Equality aims to treat people the same, because Belegarth is co-gender there is assumed equality...I dearly hope we don't have men in Belegarth who consider themselves inherently better than women. On the other hand equity is giving intentional advantage and consideration to one group as it is given to another. There IS an equity issue in the garb rule because one sub group (fighting women) do not have the closest socially accepted equivalent for comfortable upper body wear. Fighting men have a choice of either going topless or wearing clothes whereas women have one option, it's not even the bare minimum. It can be challenging as a man to understand this equity issue because fighting men have two choices in the matter and are the majority. Not to mention fighting men have never experienced being kicked off the field for being "topless". I firmly believe sports bras (without extra fabric) significantly reduces the heat difference during fighting to a negligible level. Therefore wearing more clothing on a sport's bra reduces a woman's competitive edge.
I would encourage you to listen to a multitude of fighting women in your area. In Oregon the fighting women unanimously agree that a sports bra should be our choice. If we address the option of neutral sports bra as bare minimum in our garb rules it will: give fighting women another option and take our sport a step closer towards garb gender "fairness"... and of course the other option is requiring men to wear something on top. I think I've said my peace so feel free to discuss the word nuances on equity/equality via facebook. I'd rather give forum space for others.
Gaia, you know me, I only have one option. I can not, and will not be topless on the field. Granted, I understand, I have a choice. But the choice for me that is the only correct one involves wearing a shirt.
Also, I've spoken to several women in my area, and they all supported that a sports Bra should be covered, and thought the other side of the coin was, and this is a direct quote, "ridiculous." They don't want to run around in only a sports bra, so I feel that could influence their opinion.
And I didn't offer a different solution, because I believe the current solution is the best solution, or from another point of view, that there is no solution.
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