It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:23 am


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:37 pm 
Recruit
Recruit
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Eugene, OR
Started Fighting: 29 Sep 2007
Realm: Tir na nOg
"Safety equipment" might not be an exact fit, but it's one of two classifications we currently have: either "safety equipment," or "minimum garb." Safety equipment might be the most appropriate category right now (pending a broad update of the garb rules in which more categories are created).

As one source, Web MD: "...some doctors advise women to wear sports bras during jogging to prevent bouncing that can stretch the ligaments. "Wearing a tight-fitting bra on a regular basis probably doesn't make a big difference," Downey says, "but wearing a bra that prevents a lot of bouncing, like with jogging, probably does minimize stretching of those fibrous bands."

For some women, for this and other reasons, sports bras may be related to health and/or protection against discomfort that clothing in itself can't provide.

That being said, my interest is really just in seeing sports bras be given the go-ahead to appear on the field, as an alternative to men's minimum garb requirements of toplessness. This will allow for a comfortable alternative, whether women want to make their own cool garb top, or whether they feel an off-the-shelf (logo covered) version gives them the most support.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:49 pm 
Recruit
Recruit
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:24 pm
Posts: 42
Location: Eugene, OR
Started Fighting: 29 Sep 2007
Realm: Tir na nOg
Xooyan wrote:
I'd like to propose that rather than view this as a one issue topic, we start proposing a whole new set of clearly worded garb rules to avoid confusion and alleviate some of the concerns of our community.


Do we need a temporary solution, while expecting larger revisions in the near future?


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:00 pm 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:31 pm
Posts: 67
Started Fighting: 18 Oct 2008
Realm: Muxlovia
Juniper Wynd wrote:

They are ~not~ safety equipment in any sense of the word. I'm a big chested woman that often wears a regular bra plus a sports bra for support so I know these things pretty well. They are as much "safety equipment" as your underwear. Safety equipment is meant to prevent you from injury.....like safety goggles or a cup. Exactly what injury does a piece of fabric protect you from?

At this point you ~cannot~ go topless, girls....put your big girl panties/safety equipment on and deal with it. But because we are prevented from going topless by public indecency laws women should be allowed the option of a sports bra with logos covered to count as minimum garb.


I don't think nudity was the desire of this whole entire thing. We're not saying we want our breasts to hang out, we're talking about sports bras specifically, and whether or not we should add them specifically to the B.O.W whether as safety equipment or other.

I feel as though denying that a sports bra is for safety during strenuous activity, is certainly an opinion any woman is entitled to, but I feel as though if we could ask the majority, the vote would be that yes, sport bras are for safety.

Breasts are tough, but personally I would never wear anything BUT a sports bra for the sport because frankly, it PHYSICALLY hurts me to have anything else on. Again, personally, I DO cover up my sports bra, and I WOULD make efforts to make it period, but I still think we deserve the OPTION to have it qualified as safety gear.

I completely agree with the medical findings that it's possible to tear a ligament during certain activity if you refrain from using something that was created to help prevent injury. Sports bras aren't just fabric, otherwise they would be made out of anything. Specifically they're typically spandex, made to HOLD the breasts in and keep them from bouncing. That is the type of thing that would normally cause me pain, without one.

I'm not sure that backtracking to the "is it or isn't it safety gear" is the goal of this thread anymore, and if it is, perhaps that should be the first thing people vote on.

_________________
------------

Death Is The Road To Awe

------------


Into the eternal darkness, into fire and into ice.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:04 pm 
Scout
Scout
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:41 pm
Posts: 280
Location: Stygia
Started Fighting: 01 Aug 2000
Realm: Realm of Stygia
Unit: Western Uruk-Hai
See, I find I am in more pain by wearing a sports bra only...lol. They simply don't offer enough support on their own for someone like me.

Women ~can~ wear a sports bra on the field....nothing is stopping them. They just have to wear a tabard over the top, aka they have to follow the rules. As I said before I would support the idea more if it was a push to make sports bras count as minimum garb. It was presented as making them "safety equipment" and that I don't agree with.

Here is a wiki explanation of compression shorts: Compression shorts are undergarments usually worn by athletes. They are form-fitting garments and when worn cover the athlete's waist to mid or lower thigh. These garments are often made from a spandex-type material, similar to cycling shorts. Two major differences between compression and cycling shorts, however, are that cycling shorts have seat padding typically made of chamois, and compression shorts have paneling to add a higher degree of pressure to the thigh and hamstring.[1]

A major benefit of compression shorts is they keep the thigh muscles warm to reduce muscle strain and fatigue. In addition, there is some evidence that compression shorts may enhance athletic performance.[2] They are also used as a way to keep the male genitalia in place. Compression shorts also help to keep undergarments in place, and for certain sports, like baseball and softball (where they are also known as "sliding shorts"), come with padding at the hips to protect players from injuries due to sliding.


So if a guy rolled on to the field in nothing but a pair of compression shorts and cried "safety equipment" it would be allowed?

Calling something safety equipment can't be a catch all phrase that people use to just wear whatever they want. We really need some better wording to keep people from slipping past rules simply because lazy garb is easy/cheaper. Or because they like sunglasses. Or because they like baseball hats. Or whatever it is they want to wear this time to a medieval fantasy sport.

I personally think that the minimum garb rules are too lax and vague as they are. What the heck is a neutral color anyway? A quick google search will give you a super long list of way more colors than I expected. Dark pink? Powder blue? I would not have called those neutral but someone else did.

If we ask people to cover their neutral colored shirts with a tabard or tunic why can we not ask someone to add some element of our game to their sports bra before it too passes as minimum garb? Trim is only a few dollars. If spending a few bucks to fix your sports bra to pass tweaks your nose a bit...it would be like me complaining that my weapon broke but I would like you to pass it anyway because I don't want to spend money to fix it. (And don't complain that my broken weapon is a safety issue because with all the "safety equipment" we allow you should be fine...lol)

The hard part is not really knowing what the heart of the argument is. Is it being brought up because people want to wear sports bras? Ok, easy!...add some fringe or some trim to belegarth it all up and wear your sports bra. Is it about demanding women have a close approximation to the rules that guys have about their chests? Ok, easy!....add some fringe or some trim to belegarth it all up and wear your sports bra. Is it being brought up because you don't want to wear belegath/medieval/fantasy looking stuff? Ok, easy!...find a different game cuz this is the wrong one for you.

The bummer about these topics is that I feel like they come up simply because people don't want to put any effort in to their garb. It really isn't asking a lot to require that your garb looks kinda medieval fantasy but people will argue that they should just be allowed to wear modern clothes under the guise of "safety" and that sucks. We shouldn't have to lower our standards for people who don't want to follow the rules. You wouldn't be allowed to play ice hokey in a football get up because they require different garb....as does Belegarth.

I think that changing the rule to state a sports bra is allowed so long as there is a medieval or fantasy element to the clothing would be fine. I would rather see us fighting to raise all the standards instead of lowering one so we can be "equal".

*shrugs*
Either way, it won't change much for me personally as I ~try~ to have higher standards than the bare minimum....the people who don't care still won't care, the girls who wanna wear nothing but a bra and pretend its garb will still do it.

_________________
For the Herd!

Orc Wench
Council Member of Stygia
Priestess of the Western Uruk-Hai
Wife of the Potty Ninja
Wicked Wench of the West


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:13 pm 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:31 pm
Posts: 67
Started Fighting: 18 Oct 2008
Realm: Muxlovia
Juniper Wynd wrote:

....the people who don't care still won't care, the girls who wanna wear nothing but a bra and pretend its garb will still do it.


This was one of the main points that I agree with in terms of the "other" side of the argument I suppose. I feel as though it is true, some people will always try to wear/do whatever they like, and find whatever loophole they may. Not everyone, but some.

I think that you bring up a lot of excellent points and I believe that an alternate suggestion that was brought up already was, instead of lowering the min requirement, we enforce the one already in place more thoroughly. That is, there is an active amount of people trying to regulate things like mma gloves with blatant logos and other such equipment. I don't think it could hurt to refocus this issue into refreshing the garb rules entirely, because a lot of excellent points in general have been brought up.

_________________
------------

Death Is The Road To Awe

------------


Into the eternal darkness, into fire and into ice.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:38 am 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:51 am
Posts: 1872
Location: Ered Duath
Realm: Ered Duath
Unit: EBF
Ana has it right. Make it safety equipment and then encourage ladies to make it look nicer. Juniper has it wrong imo (as usual, i always disagree with her methodology and view point on garb vs. safety equipment). just because we'll make the "majority" of the belegarth ladies we play this great game/sport/larp/whatever with feel more equal doesn't mean we're lowering our garb standards. And ya maybe our garb standards should be looked at, but making rules/garb gates/more restrictions(or in this case make a portion of our participants feel less equal) will not make better garb. just won't happen. Encouragement, examples, helpfulness etc. will. carrot of stick always.

Quote:
On a side note, I realized while typing a response on this topic (for the event staff of BftR), I think we should treat all clothes as garb and ban shirtless men. :P


That makes me sad :( I like working on my tan in January, just doesn't happen where I live. :P

Joking aside, as a male fighter who sometimes goes around bare chested I'd be very unhappy about not being allowed to continue to do that. I do find that it cools me down in a way even a linen tunic or under armour (both of which i've worn in my time in bel) don't. That's not to say it can't over heat you as well, but that has more to do with drinking enough water and using enough sunscreen, but w/e.

The point is that if I look at it from that perspective I find it unfair and it rises some ire in me that someone would take that right from me. So I then ask myself how can I fairly not allow a women to do as close to the same as the law allows? **** medievalism I don't live in the 1600s when lots of people thought women weren't equal to men, I live in the 21st century where we are equal or should be as much as possible. So ya garb is nice, but **** it if its not equal. that's just sexism regardless of our game's rules.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:16 am 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 04, 2003 3:26 pm
Posts: 1934
Location: Pentwyvern
Started Fighting: 20 Apr 2001
Realm: Pentwyvern
Unit: EBF
Long post ahead so if you don't like reading turn away now.

First, Acorn I never meant to come across as insulting to you, I said your statement about the SCA was ignorant. Mainly because I feel it is. As a member of the SCA I can tell you its pushes period more so then we do but there are plenty of Anachronism(Its in the name). Meaning plenty of things out there, look period but by no means actually are. Most of the armor on the field is modern patterns that have been adapted from most period patterns. The garb looks good but there are plenty of people who take liberties. There is very much a Sport feeling in a lot of it just like you get in Belegarth. Most people who assume that since it looks better it must be period very quickly make an * out of themselves. I was simple trying to keep your foot out of your mouth.

Secondly let me explain what I want out of Belegarth so that people understand where I am coming from. I want Belegarth(foam fighting in general) to have the best garb, the best fighting and the best attitudes it can have. I push for the best garb I can have while maintaining all the benefits of movement and staying cool. I am constantly trying to make or buy good garb that is either Period or looks like it belongs inside medieval high fantasy (LOTR, Game of thrones for example). To the same extent I am constantly watching videos of fighting, learning new moves and when I get home from my desk job I am hitting a pell, riding my bike and making sure i hit at least 2 practices a week in my area. I push to make this game better in every way I can.

Third. Safety is the upmost importance to me. Every time I take the field I am wearing a cup, knee pads, MMA gloves and Safety glasses. I will never tell anyone to take off safety gear that is a huge no no to me. What I will say is that they should make the best attempt to cover it up as possible. My underarmor I wear is always covered in a tunic, the logos are blacked out and I make sure it matches whatever tunic i am wearing so it blends in as best as possible. I do not find any of that hard to cover and would completely support a rule that would require that. Sports bras are very much the same as under armor to me. I would love to see them covered and as unobtrusive as possible, same with modern tank tops and all t-shirts on the field. Its not hard to cover up modern things, Honestly the only thing I find its hard to cover is my safety glasses, and I have tried everything to do so(helmet, mudermask, covering them in a transparent cloth) none of it worked. So if a rule was made I would like it to say something along the lines of

"all safety equipment must be covered as best possible, if not possible safety equipment should as best match the colors of your garb"

Its a pipe dream im sure but it be nice to see something like that.

I feel that the argument of "its safety equipment" is very much over used. I had a kid try to tell me he requires his bright orange sneakers because of a foot problem and they are safety equipment. His foot problem? ingrown toenails. I am not saying sports bras are not viable safety equipment, my wife wears them and has explained to me how much they help. Just that when people resort to "its safety equipment" generally they are reaching for whatever way they can keep what they love.

I will also say, I hate when anyone mentions Sexism or Racism in an argument, it instantly turns into a debate more on that. I feel it can be left out and points should be made about how to best allow something instead of turning a debate into an equality debate. Women and men aren't built the same, and while to most people(sadly not all) we are equal there are defiantly some underlying prejudices against any form of nudity in american society.

Would it be so hard to require people to wear a flesh colored sports bra? it would at the very least make that person look more like they are shirtless, and I know there are flesh colored versions out there.

Honestly, I don't care that much if you wear a sports bra on the field, but if you are only wearing a sports bra on the field, I feel you need to put in more of an effort to look the part. Sadly there are always going to be people who will either break the rules or just do the bare minimum to pass them, and that makes me sad.

Also, Elwrath you should just wear a sports bra down at BOTR this year.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:51 am 
Belegarth President
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:27 pm
Posts: 2001
Location: Irvine, CA
Started Fighting: 31 Aug 2001
Realm: Marshal of Anduril
Unit: Wardens
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword & Board, Extreme Taunting
I just want to put all rumors to rest now - men will always be allowed to be shirtless at BftR. That was Rev talking, not me. Elwrath is encouraged to work on his tan... I have a list of other Belgrim who I think should also work on their tans. It will probably be a royal decree or something.

I actually do see the merits in Juniper's argument about compression shorts. I strongly feel that women should modify their sports bras, but I NEVER want a rule that makes people remove their safety gear from the field if they did not modify it. I think culture should elevate garb, not necessarily with rules.

I see 2 options legislatively that make sense to me:

1) Have a vote to back to the wording of 7 years ago - allowing sports bras as the female equivalent of topless, and then encourage people to modify them.

2) Have some sort of vote so that we have a consensus agreement about whether sports bras are safety equipment (or if they are not). If not, then they must be modified, if yes, then they should be modified.

Frankly, I'll need something concrete soon. I want to advertise the correct policy in a garb guide ahead of my January event. This is a divisive issue for ECs and their staff, and I prefer having something clear cut and community based. I don't want to have special rules at my event (contrary to anyone's fan fic about me). The most important thing is to have it be clear to attendees - I have the ability to get that information out if we can get something accomplished soon.

_________________
Cofounder and Marshal of Andúril
Cofounder Battle for the Ring
Order of the Shining Tower
Order of the Western Flame

See you at Battle for the Ring VII MLK Weekend in January 2015


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:05 am 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:31 pm
Posts: 67
Started Fighting: 18 Oct 2008
Realm: Muxlovia
Varadin wrote:
"all safety equipment must be covered as best possible, if not possible safety equipment should as best match the colors of your garb"



I second this, especially because it goes back to what some of us have been saying about "culture." Allow the sports bras, but encourage the fighters to cover them up if they can, and inspire them/give them ideas as to how. We're a very supportive sport, I think this can easily be done.

_________________
------------

Death Is The Road To Awe

------------


Into the eternal darkness, into fire and into ice.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:37 pm 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:23 pm
Posts: 57
Location: Bloomington, IL
Started Fighting: 0- 8-2009
Realm: Wolfpack
Unit: Sons of Sylas
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:

1) Have a vote to back to the wording of 7 years ago - allowing sports bras as the female equivalent of topless, and then encourage people to modify them.



....Why did we ever change the rules in the first place? (Rhetorical question.. I don't really need to know) This makes the most sense seeing as how we want to push each other to do things better within the sport anyway.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:26 pm 
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: Fri May 09, 2003 11:51 am
Posts: 1872
Location: Ered Duath
Realm: Ered Duath
Unit: EBF
Again I agree with what Ana said (option 1) and will push my realm to vote yes on a similarly worded change.

Love you Varadin and yes I would wear a sports bra for a day at BftR if one in my size and skin colored were procured (though it would mess with my tan) :P

I wasn't trying to say anyone was trying to be sexist with their arguments (in fact having read through every single word of everyone's posts on the subject I can say I think everyone tried their best to not be sexist), but I do think it is a sexist rule.

Again the way to fix garb is to uplift, encourage, be an example of, award, etc the good garb, not have rules which do the opposite. I know if I were in the position of the girls who tried to come onto the field at chaos with only sports bras I'd be pretty ticked off.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:45 pm 
Warning: Knows Math
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Posts: 4792
Location: near Newark, NJ
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Goldenvale+East Kingdom
Unit: Omega Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
This is so dumb.



1. The rules should state "Shirtless is acceptable where allowed by law." Period. Full stop. If a lady at a Bel Realm in New York wanted to go topless at an event there, why should the Belegarth BoW have anything to say about it, so long as the rest of her garb is up to snuff and the overall appearance is congruent with the medieval fantasy feel we allege to portray?


2. Discussions about how we should let people fight in sports bras, t-shirts, and sweatpants without making any attempt at actual garb is one of the factors driving people to the SCA or Dagorhir right now, you know.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:02 pm 
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2003 7:35 pm
Posts: 2169
Location: Tir Asleen
Started Fighting: 0-10-2002
Realm: Tir Asleen
Unit: House Dregoth
Favorite Fighting Styles: Blue and Board
I think this issue should be decided by the people directly affected; the women of Belegarth. I have my opinion on the subject, but ultimately, since this is an issue which is directly linked to women's health and comfort, it should be decided mainly by them. Let them come up with a well thought out and clear rules change, and we can vote on it.

Incidentally, I would like to point out gloves and sports bras should not be in the same category here...gloves with padding protect against blunt force trauma, "sports bras prevent jiggling" (last statement direct quote from my wife, a now inactive Belegarth fighter who fought for many years).

Good luck with this, and I hope we can get to a reasonable accommodation for women's comfort and playability.

_________________
Sir Calarn the Black
Knight Lt. of House Dregoth
Knight of Tir Asleen


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:05 pm 
Grunt
Grunt

Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 9:53 pm
Posts: 205
Location: Nan Belegorn
Started Fighting: 0- 0-1999
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword 'n Board
I'll keep this brief for the sake of those reading the whole thread.

What this boils down to is where we choose to redraw an existing line.

Covered underarmor, neutral T-shirts, lacrosse gloves, tennis shoes, and sports goggles are an one side of the line, while brand logos and denim jeans, for example, are on the other. I believe sports bras should be allowed into the "acceptably practical for min garb" side of the line.

Thank you.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:33 am 
Belegarth Vice President
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:36 pm
Posts: 2055
Location: Central IL
Started Fighting: 03 Jan 2009
Realm: Grond
Unit: Sons of Sylas
Favorite Fighting Styles: Boot and Bottle
Arrakis wrote:
2. Discussions about how we should let people fight in sports bras, t-shirts, and sweatpants without making any attempt at actual garb is one of the factors driving people to the SCA or Dagorhir right now, you know.

This is what bugs me the most about the argument. I understand the separation of the standard, but why does anyone -want- to wear a plain sports bra? Why not make some kind of covering for it so that you don't look like some time-traveller swinging a stick and instead look like a fantasy character?

I feel the same way about all min-garb, not just sports bras. I have worn underarmor and a tabard in the past, but now that I have a sleeveless tunic, I have it covered at all times on the field at events.

_________________
Squire to Sir Calarn the Black
Palatine and Acolyte of the Sons of Sylas
"But in life, the young king becomes a tyrant, and leads his people to war."


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:04 am 
Recruit
Recruit
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:02 am
Posts: 22
Started Fighting: 17 Nov 2012
Realm: Stygia
Unit: Shadow Clan
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board/Archery
Caleidah wrote:
Arrakis wrote:
2. Discussions about how we should let people fight in sports bras, t-shirts, and sweatpants without making any attempt at actual garb is one of the factors driving people to the SCA or Dagorhir right now, you know.

This is what bugs me the most about the argument. I understand the separation of the standard, but why does anyone -want- to wear a plain sports bra? Why not make some kind of covering for it so that you don't look like some time-traveller swinging a stick and instead look like a fantasy character?

I feel the same way about all min-garb, not just sports bras. I have worn underarmor and a tabard in the past, but now that I have a sleeveless tunic, I have it covered at all times on the field at events.


This. This is part of what I don't understand about the discussion. Why is there such intense feelings in favor of allowing unmodified, just bought in the store, sports bras when they are so easy to disguise and modify? Especially when some of those most actively in favor of it have awesome garb and never even plan on using this rule anyway. I understand defending and supporting those you agree with but...

I also have not gotten an answer as to why it is apparently asking so much to garb-ify a sports bra so that it would (to my understanding) comply with current rules and become a non-issue. All I have heard is "we shouldn't have to". That's like saying "because". Not really an answer...

I have been asked "what does garby/garbify mean?" It means to make something blend in with the historical/fantasy theme on which this game is based. A theme, by the way, that is part of the reason many of us play the game. For instance I would not play if the game was "run out in shorts and hit people with foam sticks". I play because of the medieval aspect to the game. But that's another discussion.. Anyway back to sports bras. Put scraps of fabric on it, chainmail, fur, war braids. Something. Anything. Put effort into it so that an onlookers eye or a camera can more easily ignore the cut of the garment, the look of the spandex, the webbing of the sports material, and the way these elements combine to scream "Hi! I was just picked up at the local sporting shop! What time did I trip into??" And this is assuming that by neutral colored, people agree that we mean black or tan or brown types of colors. Personally I see a great danger in seeing many colors that would be iffy on the neutral colored definition. Because as mentioned there isn't a solid definition as to what is neutral colored.

I have also been told that they are expensive and therefore impractical to modify. Okay. I understand in general we are a money strapped game. I don't have extra dollars floating around either. So make a thin, webby, leafy, whispy, whatever cover to slip over it to disguise it, while not adding weight/heat to the sports bra. It doesn't have to be elaborate, just try. That's all I ask.

I understand that many feel this is an equality issue. However, besides my point about equality basically being unattainable in this aspect due local, and state laws, doing something JUST for fairness sake isn't always the right thing to do if other important factors are ignored just "for fairness". It is like breaking a one child's toy just because her sibling's toy is broken. It makes things fair... but it isn't generally what most people would consider the right thing to do.

In the interest of simplicity, I would agree with Arrakis that the wording should be "Shirtless is acceptable where allowed by law." From there, if event coordinators happen to be in a state that allows women to go topless and they do not feel comfortable with that (for family friendliness, etc), it is my understanding that as event coordinators they would be free to add stipulations to their own event. If people did not agree with those stipulations, they would be free to not attend.

On the flip side, if an event was in the same example state, and event coordinators chose to stick with shirtlessness for both genders being allowed, participants would still be free to attend or not depending on their personal preferences. This would place the responsibility of balancing fairness with concerns of being sensitive to people's beliefs/attitude towards family friendliness on event coordinators and realms/realm leaders. They are the ones actively interacting with the people they are organizing and should do so in the best interest of the people they represent/wish to attract in the case of event coordinators.

_________________
Keep your eye clear and keen, Like a falcon on the wing
Keep your heart strong and steady, Like your hand upon the string;
Never bow to a tyrant while your people are laid low,
For the highest head may fall to the man who wields a bow. ~ Ken Theriot "William Tell"


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:55 pm 
Brute
Brute
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 529
Location: Coralville, Iowa
Started Fighting: 18 Apr 1996
Realm: Stal Dalen
Unit: HORDE
Arrakis wrote:
This is so dumb.



1. The rules should state "Shirtless is acceptable where allowed by law." Period. Full stop. If a lady at a Bel Realm in New York wanted to go topless at an event there, why should the Belegarth BoW have anything to say about it, so long as the rest of her garb is up to snuff and the overall appearance is congruent with the medieval fantasy feel we allege to portray?


2. Discussions about how we should let people fight in sports bras, t-shirts, and sweatpants without making any attempt at actual garb is one of the factors driving people to the SCA or Dagorhir right now, you know.


^ This.

And to back it up:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/16/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

And, coincidentally, today is 'go topless day':

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/2 ... 86351.html

I'm not saying I want girls to go topless or anything, I'm just pointing out that the 'a woman wearing a sports bra is equivalent to a man going topless' argument is bunk... especially in the context we are discussing.

Good points have been made all around. I especially like the compression shorts comparison argument. If it's safety gear, and I'm not required to cover or disquise *any* safety gear for *any reason* I'll be happy to balance the scales and take my fat-ass out on the field in neon biker shorts and nothing else.

Here is how I see it. Even if you consider a sports bra safety equipment, which I can agree with doing, the arguments against modifying safety equipment we commonly discuss don't apply here. A hockey or lacrosse glove will still look like a hockey or lacrosse glove... no matter what you do to it; modifying it to look period is nearly out of the question. Same goes for protective eyewear, regardless of whether or not you consider sunglasses to fit the category. However, a sports bra is easily disguised as period clothing without compromising the safety benefit or the fit and feel of the garment.

As some have pointed out, a sports bra fits into some quasi category between safety equipment and garb... on the one hand it has undeniable health and safety benefits, and on the other it is a modern *garment* typically regarded as underwear. Don't believe me? Check out Amazon.com where they categorize sports bras under 'intimates'.

So, how do we solve this? To me, our current rules for the most part seem to have it covered. Arrakis' point is the answer to the equality argument allowing anyone to go topless as local jurisdiction allows. Otherwise as it's written, no one may prevent one from wearing a sports bra, however it must be covered as is the requirement of any other modern garment by our rules.

That's my two cents.

_________________
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
Horde marched to the field. Their leaders up in the air, adorned in furs and animal skulls. Women from camps chained underneath the platforms, fire-breathers & flag bearers ran about before of the procession. I have never in my life felt closer to being in a fantasy world. I will always remember that for a moment I thought so many things were possible.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:18 pm 
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 5:28 pm
Posts: 2595
Location: Bend, OR
Started Fighting: 0- 8-2002
Realm: Babylon
Unit: Catalyst
Favorite Fighting Styles: Terrible. Tickler of the Tail
A lot has been said. On both sides. Thank you everyone for the (mostly) on track and well thought out discussions.

While I can agree and disagree on points made on both sides.
It is also my opinion that the minimum amount of garb SHOULD be raised.
But I also realize that not every is me.

This is COMBAT SOCIETY.

Not, who can come up with the best period/reenactment clothing of all time. Do we highly encourage that? of course we do. But part of the reason why I enjoy Belegarth so much, is that our MEDIEVAL FANTASY setting means we can make a lot of grab in so many different ways that doesn't conform to how most other games operate.
Personally I wear grab that gets me by. I'm not good at all at sewing, and honestly I don't want to spend the money on making my grab look super awesome. I'm happy with what I wear currently and how it represents me.

And, I honestly enjoy when someone comes out on the field in bight colors (not neon) or silly costume's that they put a lot of hard work and time to make themselves.

Hell look at this year's Chao's War's FOP party. It's NOT medieval at all, but EVERYONE was having an EXTREMELY good time with the setting of it. As was demonstrated by Shino's Heralding that day on the field.
(Won Herald of the day and of the week.)
Because WHY not? Remember Medieval Fantasy.

Also there are many people that I know personally that run extremely hot body temperatures and the more layers you wear (even if they are of thin fabric material) allows heat to be trapped against the body and not allow you to cool off. Especially if it is very hot and there is no breeze at all to help keep cool, harder still if there is no shade.

Many people are in fearing the fact that if allow sports bras as "minimum" garb, that women will choose to ONLY wear just that.
But that would be no different then what we see already with many men only choose to wear nothing on the torso.

But what I do see far far more often, is people who DO choose to go shirtless often paint or add flair to it. Some don't. Most do.

Why would women be any different? Many would choose to modify or add flair to that sports bra. And again, some would not. Also a reminder again that not ALL women (like men!) will choose to go that route.

And I'd also like to point out, that this really only happens in the extreme heat of SUMMER. When we should be following SAFETY and PLAYABILITY, rather than realism of our game. I would rather someone be having a good time and enjoying an event and not getting heat stroke. Also these people would be suicidal to run around in a winter setting this way. So they don't. Naturally.

Also on the Facebook group, the women who discussed it all pretty much agreed they wanted to avoid calling it "safety equipment" because we all know what a huge can of worms that will THEN bring up in voting.

Like, what else then? Is safety equipment? What else can we add to that list. What justify's safety equipment?

Granted we could figure it out, but to be honest. I don't want to do all that work, if someone wants to step up and figure that out. Go for it. I honestly don't have the time for it or I would.

And again, I understand that many feel that this will degrade our sport, or make it lower than it is. I'd also like to point out, that if you are following this line of thinking about what OTHERS will think of us.

To which I say, who the **** cares what others think of us? For all the years that I've been in Bend, Oregon apart of Babylon (10 years now)

Not ONCE have I had someone come up and say "Oh man, what great clothing you all wear. Please tell me how to make those clothes."

Rather its' "man what you guys are doing is bad *? can I play?"

90% of the population is driving by and saying "Oh look at those kids playing with foam sticks. How adorable."

NOT

"Oh gee golly. Look at those men shirtless and those women in sports bras and look those that ARE wearing garb are not wearing period materials and everything about their clothing is ALL wrong."

So yeah, my opinion is that sports bras = men being shirtless.

And the Babylon Empire will support this issue. Because honestly, Realism can take a backseat just this once so Safety and Playability can have its day.

That's all I'm going to say about it here. If you wanna respond to me personally, send me a PM.

_________________
Realm Representative of Babylon
President of OtherWorld Events LLC
Member of the Order of the Raised Goblet
Check PLUS!


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:00 pm 
Berserker
Berserker
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:37 am
Posts: 837
Location: Ventura, CA
Started Fighting: 19 Aug 1964
Realm: Sword Coast
Unit: Clan Blackwolfe
Favorite Fighting Styles: ****, slow and ****.
Thurat wrote:
I would be behind a wording that states:

"Obviously modern clothing must be disguised, modified, or otherwise blend in with and be unobtrusive to the medieval aspect or look of the overall garb."


^^^THIS We would LOVE to see this in the BOW. Even as a stand alone statement in the garb section.

"1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements."

Which as I read it also says clearly:

“Any piece of clothing required out of medical necessity.”

I see the official naming of a sports bra as “medical/safety equipment” would be rather redundant, as ANY CLOTHING can already bypass garb requirements by the current rule set. And after many conversations I know it will unlock the door for far more problems than it solves.

We of the Sword Coast would agree to Juniper’s rule work of:

Juniper wrote:
I would like to propose a change to this:
with a slight important rewording for the legally minded:

1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but should be covered when possible by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item should be superficially altered when possible to meet minimum garb requirements.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:34 am 
Scout
Scout
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:41 pm
Posts: 280
Location: Stygia
Started Fighting: 01 Aug 2000
Realm: Realm of Stygia
Unit: Western Uruk-Hai
Anij Kalish wrote:
I also have not gotten an answer as to why it is apparently asking so much to garb-ify a sports bra so that it would (to my understanding) comply with current rules and become a non-issue. All I have heard is "we shouldn't have to". That's like saying "because". Not really an answer...


I'm still waiting for a decent answer to this as well.

Touching on what Huma said...this is not "combat society" only though....its called Belegarth Medieval Combat Society for a reason. If you can't dress the part don't play. FFS. Its not hard. Wear garb that gets you by, wear garb that passes. That's all people seem to be asking for really.

Srsly, heat stroke? I don't think wearing a sports bra is going to save someone from heat stroke versus wearing a garb passable shirt.

The main push back seems to be coming from people who don't want this game watered down any more for people who just don't give two poops to begin with. We require very little for garb to pass. We aren't asking for everyone to have the best, we are just asking for basic rule compliance. You don't go to church in lingerie, you don't go to work in your pajamas, you don't play Bel in modern clothes.

This will further degrade our sport if we start to allow stuff like just a plain Jane sports bra and I am not basing that off of what other people think but my own personal feelings. Arrakis is right, our low garb standards are one of the big reasons that some of our players are moving on to different sports...it can either be denied and ignored or it can be addressed. I know Soo and I have discussed leaving Bel in the past and the steadily declining standards of the rules was a big topic of discussion.

So many people have said "I'd like to see minimum garb standards raised" and "I would never wear just a sports bra myself" but then argue for simple sports bras to pass in the same breath. Weirdness, I say! Too much diplomacy, political correctness and wanting to count everyone in. Meh.

_________________
For the Herd!

Orc Wench
Council Member of Stygia
Priestess of the Western Uruk-Hai
Wife of the Potty Ninja
Wicked Wench of the West


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:15 am 
Brute
Brute
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:59 pm
Posts: 528
Location: Marina, CA
Started Fighting: 0- 6-2002
Realm: Babylon Empire
Unit: Catalyst
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board, archery
*Sorry that I keep harping on your posts Juniper, we just apparently disagree on this issue*

Juniper Wynd wrote:
So many people have said "I'd like to see minimum garb standards raised" and "I would never wear just a sports bra myself" but then argue for simple sports bras to pass in the same breath. Weirdness, I say! Too much diplomacy, political correctness and wanting to count everyone in. Meh.


People can have opinions on their personal comfort level and aesthetic counter to a proposed rule change without being "politically correct" or just "wanting to count everyone in."

And for many of us, upping the garb standards can be done WITHOUT making a change that effectively encodes the need for female fighters to adhere to someone else's personal opinions about what type of bra-like top is GARB-Y ENOUGH to pass as minimum garb.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:47 am 
Warning: Knows Math
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Posts: 4792
Location: near Newark, NJ
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Goldenvale+East Kingdom
Unit: Omega Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Rocca wrote:
the need for female fighters to adhere to someone else's personal opinions about what type of bra-like top is GARB-Y ENOUGH to pass as minimum garb.


You realize that that's literally the entire point of having garb rules, right? That people who want to play this game have to wear a costume that is "garby enough" at the absolute minimum and that they should try harder than the minimum? And that you're trying to lower the minimum even more?


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:03 pm 
Slayer
Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 26, 2003 9:25 pm
Posts: 1133
Location: Still in the grips of Sea Madness
Unit: God Squad
Favorite Fighting Styles: Lookin' Pretty
I think Elwrath has made the point a few times that has been brushed aside. Whether or not we deem sports bras akin to neutral colored t-shirts (requiring them to be covered by tabards etc), we still have an equity issue in giving men the option to be shirtless, but forcing women to wear extra clothing instead of their often closest to shirtless option. I believe that if this rule change takes effect, we need to also require men to wear torso garb to keep our game equitable.

I also agree with those who have said they would like to see the women of belegarth be the ones to decide on this, as it affects none of the men in bel outside of your aesthetic preferences.

There are certainly lightweight/cooler garb options; if this is what you'd like to see more of on the field, lead by example.

Just to reiterate, this is more than a discussion of minimum garb; it brings an equity issue to our rules system.

_________________
Lacerating Lazarus of God Squad


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:08 pm 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Alton, IL
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1999
Realm: Riverbend
Unit: Henneth-Annun
Quote:
I also agree with those who have said they would like to see the women of belegarth be the ones to decide on this, as it affects none of the men in bel outside of your aesthetic preferences.


Why shouldn't all the people who are, for example 6'-3" to 6'-4" in height get to decide whether they should have to wear garb or not? After all, it won't affect anyone shorter than 6'-3" or taller than 6'-4", except for their aesthetic preferences? Why shouldn't people who prefer chewy bacon get to decide for themselves whether garb is required for them, and end the aesthetic tyranny of the crispy-bacon-ites?

Medieval/fantasy aestheticism is intrinsic to Belegarth. Those who want to change the garb rules should either accept that or leave and form their own game. I personally have no interest in Belegarth without garb, which as I have said previously in this discussion is the logical end result of this proposal. I hope it is obvious that once one garb becomes optional for one gender, it would almost immediately have to become optional for the other (Fairness!) and the game would be irrevocably changed and, in my opinion, greatly diminished.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:55 pm 
Belegarth President
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:27 pm
Posts: 2001
Location: Irvine, CA
Started Fighting: 31 Aug 2001
Realm: Marshal of Anduril
Unit: Wardens
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword & Board, Extreme Taunting
Shirtless men are period. Period.

The rule change that says anyone can be shirtless provided they are following local laws is our best nod to equity. After that, it's not Bel being an *, it's your government.

I have really bounced around on this debate because I can see good points on all sides. I prefer the proposal that Juniper put forward that codifies the expectation of modification for safety equipment, but does not technically require it. I prefer this because it specifies we care about making these items match garb, but it protects event coordinators, realm leaders, and others from liability and litigation.

_________________
Cofounder and Marshal of Andúril
Cofounder Battle for the Ring
Order of the Shining Tower
Order of the Western Flame

See you at Battle for the Ring VII MLK Weekend in January 2015


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:13 pm 
Brute
Brute
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:59 pm
Posts: 528
Location: Marina, CA
Started Fighting: 0- 6-2002
Realm: Babylon Empire
Unit: Catalyst
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board, archery
Arrakis wrote:
Rocca wrote:
the need for female fighters to adhere to someone else's personal opinions about what type of bra-like top is GARB-Y ENOUGH to pass as minimum garb.


You realize that that's literally the entire point of having garb rules, right? That people who want to play this game have to wear a costume that is "garby enough" at the absolute minimum and that they should try harder than the minimum? And that you're trying to lower the minimum even more?


Oh is that the point? Thanks for spelling it out for me, sweetheart.

Seriously though, this issue Is different because, unlike other articles of clothing, many of use HAVE to wear a bra to play the game (for many reasons already discussed). I see that you don't see it a different, but some of us do, and those of us that do are not trying to:

a) make rules out of spite (as some have suggested)
b) lower garb standards in general because we hate garb and all want to wear shorts and jerseys
c) get special treatment so we can fight in just bras because we're lazy.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:25 pm 
Toadie
Toadie
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 104
Location: Portland, OR
Started Fighting: 24 Aug 2006
Elerosse and I are on the same page about moving this conversation away from "how women/garb should look for our sport" or "do women wearing sports bra's align with my personal values" and more towards "how can we create gender equity in our garb rules"

Belegarth is a co-gender sport which means we should make every effort to encourage both men and women to feel comfortable on/off the field. At the moment I feel uncomfortable because a few male Belegrim have a strong say in what I as a fighting woman should be wearing. I think this rule change holds more weight towards fighting women since it directly affects females out on the field. Currently the concerns I've heard from House Valkyries FB forum is the current rule needs to change because it is not equitable; meaning fighting women do not have a suitable equivalent to fighting men being allowed to go topless.

Having worked with my city’s code enforcement team I know an inequitable issue when I see one. What do I propose? As mentioned by Elerosse I too think there are two distinct paths that could make this garb rule equitable.

1. Both men and women at all times must wear garb on their torso.

OR

2. Men can opt to be shirtless on the field and Women have the option of wearing neutral logo-less sports bras.


Juniper, I'd like to share my perspective.

Juniper Wynd wrote:
Anij Kalish wrote:
I also have not gotten an answer as to why it is apparently asking so much to garb-ify a sports bra so that it would (to my understanding) comply with current rules and become a non-issue. All I have heard is "we shouldn't have to". That's like saying "because". Not really an answer...


I'm still waiting for a decent answer to this as well.

Srsly, heat stroke? I don't think wearing a sports bra is going to save someone from heat stroke versus wearing a garb passable shirt.
.


1. When fighting I ALWAYS wear a sports bra because it keeps my breasts in place. In the past I've forgotten my sports bra and was hit on the breast with a blue...to my surprise it STUNG LIKE A #*%. So I encourage sports bras to keep the ladies in place.

2. I usually wear a garby top over my sports bra HOWEVER I've fought with neutral colored sports bras (logo off). Why? Because when hot events like Armageddon, Ragnarok, or Chaos Wars get too toasty I get rid of leather, fur, and excess garb. *I never did it with the intent of breaking rules (to be honest I forgot about this garb rule) I simply do/did it because it’s hot and my other male fighting friends shed their extra top clothes.

3. A non logoed neutral colored sports bra is the closest I can get to being comfortable. I am not on the field to help Belegarth pictures look cool, I just want to fight and comfortably at that. As someone who has furry and leather upper garments the “just sports bra option” is far more comfortable.

4. Let’s not bring what “is period” into this discussion since we have a plethora of garb out there. From pinkies, to goblins, paladins, middle east etc. Besides…I welcome how far our society had gone to balance the opportunities offered for both men and women.


I appreciate those who have commented in attempts to find a solution. Our sport is growing- It is not reasonable to suggest we leave the sport because we disagree with a garb rule, I for one am not going anywhere. Let’s stay on topic and avoid derailing.

Thanks for reading,
Gaia

_________________
Gelfan Conscript
House Valkyries
Brown Sister Club
Trust the process


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:35 pm 
Brute
Brute
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 529
Location: Coralville, Iowa
Started Fighting: 18 Apr 1996
Realm: Stal Dalen
Unit: HORDE
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
Shirtless men are period. Period.

The rule change that says anyone can be shirtless provided they are following local laws is our best nod to equity. After that, it's not Bel being an *, it's your government.

I have really bounced around on this debate because I can see good points on all sides. I prefer the proposal that Juniper put forward that codifies the expectation of modification for safety equipment, but does not technically require it. I prefer this because it specifies we care about making these items match garb, but it protects event coordinators, realm leaders, and others from liability and litigation.


QFT

_________________
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
Horde marched to the field. Their leaders up in the air, adorned in furs and animal skulls. Women from camps chained underneath the platforms, fire-breathers & flag bearers ran about before of the procession. I have never in my life felt closer to being in a fantasy world. I will always remember that for a moment I thought so many things were possible.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:23 pm 
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm
Posts: 5476
Location: Elgin, IL (Dunharrow)
Started Fighting: 0- 5-2001
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Bat and Board, Archery, Spear
There's a difference between gender equality based on things where men and women are the same, and based on things where men and women are simply built different. I hate to say it, and I'm not meaning to come off as aggressive in the slightest there's way, there's already too much hostility, negative tones and verbal sniping, but just because you have to wear one doesn't make it the same as topless.

It's the, basically, bare minimum clothing that you can wear on your chest for a variety of reasons both legal and ethical, and I understand that. But we're not the same, and this isn't something that you can compare. In this day and age, for multiple reasons, this is a social..... I'm gonna spell this wrong.... Phopa to voice. But I really don't think this is a situation where equality is going to be the answer. Reeka from TA wears a sports bra or bikini top all the time. She made a wrap to wrap around the whole thing that is light weight and really simple.

It's NOT fair, don't take me wrong and trust me I am sorry. I'd love to get a law passed to outlaw the J-hook. And I'm sorry.

_________________
King of Dunharrow
Commander of Clan of the Hydra
Biggy Biggy J
Rather Large James
James of Enviable Girth
Jimmington


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:59 pm 
Toadie
Toadie
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:42 am
Posts: 104
Location: Portland, OR
Started Fighting: 24 Aug 2006
Big King Jimmy wrote:
There's a difference between gender equality based on things where men and women are the same, and based on things where men and women are simply built different. I hate to say it, and I'm not meaning to come off as aggressive in the slightest there's way, there's already too much hostility, negative tones and verbal sniping, but just because you have to wear one doesn't make it the same as topless.

It's the, basically, bare minimum clothing that you can wear on your chest for a variety of reasons both legal and ethical, and I understand that. But we're not the same, and this isn't something that you can compare. In this day and age, for multiple reasons, this is a social..... I'm gonna spell this wrong.... Phopa to voice. But I really don't think this is a situation where equality is going to be the answer. Reeka from TA wears a sports bra or bikini top all the time. She made a wrap to wrap around the whole thing that is light weight and really simple.

It's NOT fair, don't take me wrong and trust me I am sorry. I'd love to get a law passed to outlaw the J-hook. And I'm sorry.


Hey Big Jimmy! Not sure I've understood/agree with your views on equity and I did not see a proposal for offering a solution. Also, I did not think you came off as aggressive and I'm glad you recognize the issue at hand as being unfair.

Because our anatomical "sameness"/"differences" was brought into the discussion I want to make sure we're on the same page about the meaning of equality vs equity. Equality aims to treat people the same, because Belegarth is co-gender there is assumed equality...I dearly hope we don't have men in Belegarth who consider themselves inherently better than women. On the other hand equity is giving intentional advantage and consideration to one group as it is given to another. There IS an equity issue in the garb rule because one sub group (fighting women) do not have the closest socially accepted equivalent for comfortable upper body wear. Fighting men have a choice of either going topless or wearing clothes whereas women have one option, it's not even the bare minimum. It can be challenging as a man to understand this equity issue because fighting men have two choices in the matter and are the majority. Not to mention fighting men have never experienced being kicked off the field for being "topless". I firmly believe sports bras (without extra fabric) significantly reduces the heat difference during fighting to a negligible level. Therefore wearing more clothing on a sport's bra reduces a woman's competitive edge.

I would encourage you to listen to a multitude of fighting women in your area. In Oregon the fighting women unanimously agree that a sports bra should be our choice. If we address the option of neutral sports bra as bare minimum in our garb rules it will: give fighting women another option and take our sport a step closer towards garb gender "fairness"... and of course the other option is requiring men to wear something on top. I think I've said my peace so feel free to discuss the word nuances on equity/equality via facebook. I'd rather give forum space for others.

_________________
Gelfan Conscript
House Valkyries
Brown Sister Club
Trust the process


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:04 pm 
Berserker
Berserker
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:37 am
Posts: 837
Location: Ventura, CA
Started Fighting: 19 Aug 1964
Realm: Sword Coast
Unit: Clan Blackwolfe
Favorite Fighting Styles: ****, slow and ****.
Blackwolfe wrote:
Rocca, personally, if all it took was saying sports bras are the equal to men shirtless I, Talon, would vote for that in a heart beat. It won't end there for many reasons stated.

I've heard at least five men in private say "it's not my fault women can't go topless" bummer attitude, but there you go.

On that note, Sword Coast has moved to support the following change:

From:

1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable for men.

to

1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable where allowed by local law.

Eventually it will say 'nudity' but that's for a future thread.

_________________
BLACKWOLFE
Founder and Lord Marshal the Sword Coast
First King of the Sword Coast
Unit Leader Clan Blackwolfe
Patriarch of House Blackwolfe
Reaver Pirate Lord
Shinigami Captain
Captain of the Lady Wolf
Proud Father of "the" T-Bird


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:13 pm 
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm
Posts: 5476
Location: Elgin, IL (Dunharrow)
Started Fighting: 0- 5-2001
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Bat and Board, Archery, Spear
Gaia wrote:
Big King Jimmy wrote:
There's a difference between gender equality based on things where men and women are the same, and based on things where men and women are simply built different. I hate to say it, and I'm not meaning to come off as aggressive in the slightest there's way, there's already too much hostility, negative tones and verbal sniping, but just because you have to wear one doesn't make it the same as topless.

It's the, basically, bare minimum clothing that you can wear on your chest for a variety of reasons both legal and ethical, and I understand that. But we're not the same, and this isn't something that you can compare. In this day and age, for multiple reasons, this is a social..... I'm gonna spell this wrong.... Phopa to voice. But I really don't think this is a situation where equality is going to be the answer. Reeka from TA wears a sports bra or bikini top all the time. She made a wrap to wrap around the whole thing that is light weight and really simple.

It's NOT fair, don't take me wrong and trust me I am sorry. I'd love to get a law passed to outlaw the J-hook. And I'm sorry.


Hey Big Jimmy! Not sure I've understood/agree with your views on equity and I did not see a proposal for offering a solution. Also, I did not think you came off as aggressive and I'm glad you recognize the issue at hand as being unfair.

Because our anatomical "sameness"/"differences" was brought into the discussion I want to make sure we're on the same page about the meaning of equality vs equity. Equality aims to treat people the same, because Belegarth is co-gender there is assumed equality...I dearly hope we don't have men in Belegarth who consider themselves inherently better than women. On the other hand equity is giving intentional advantage and consideration to one group as it is given to another. There IS an equity issue in the garb rule because one sub group (fighting women) do not have the closest socially accepted equivalent for comfortable upper body wear. Fighting men have a choice of either going topless or wearing clothes whereas women have one option, it's not even the bare minimum. It can be challenging as a man to understand this equity issue because fighting men have two choices in the matter and are the majority. Not to mention fighting men have never experienced being kicked off the field for being "topless". I firmly believe sports bras (without extra fabric) significantly reduces the heat difference during fighting to a negligible level. Therefore wearing more clothing on a sport's bra reduces a woman's competitive edge.

I would encourage you to listen to a multitude of fighting women in your area. In Oregon the fighting women unanimously agree that a sports bra should be our choice. If we address the option of neutral sports bra as bare minimum in our garb rules it will: give fighting women another option and take our sport a step closer towards garb gender "fairness"... and of course the other option is requiring men to wear something on top. I think I've said my peace so feel free to discuss the word nuances on equity/equality via facebook. I'd rather give forum space for others.


Gaia, you know me, I only have one option. I can not, and will not be topless on the field. Granted, I understand, I have a choice. But the choice for me that is the only correct one involves wearing a shirt.

Also, I've spoken to several women in my area, and they all supported that a sports Bra should be covered, and thought the other side of the coin was, and this is a direct quote, "ridiculous." They don't want to run around in only a sports bra, so I feel that could influence their opinion.

And I didn't offer a different solution, because I believe the current solution is the best solution, or from another point of view, that there is no solution.

_________________
King of Dunharrow
Commander of Clan of the Hydra
Biggy Biggy J
Rather Large James
James of Enviable Girth
Jimmington


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Changing the Garb rule to allow for Sports Bras
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 11:17 am 
Brute
Brute
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 6:45 pm
Posts: 584
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Started Fighting: 11 Nov 2006
Realm: Babylon
Unit: Catalyst
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword/board, flo, archery
Big King Jimmy wrote:
Gaia wrote:
Big King Jimmy wrote:
There's a difference between gender equality based on things where men and women are the same, and based on things where men and women are simply built different. I hate to say it, and I'm not meaning to come off as aggressive in the slightest there's way, there's already too much hostility, negative tones and verbal sniping, but just because you have to wear one doesn't make it the same as topless.

It's the, basically, bare minimum clothing that you can wear on your chest for a variety of reasons both legal and ethical, and I understand that. But we're not the same, and this isn't something that you can compare. In this day and age, for multiple reasons, this is a social..... I'm gonna spell this wrong.... Phopa to voice. But I really don't think this is a situation where equality is going to be the answer. Reeka from TA wears a sports bra or bikini top all the time. She made a wrap to wrap around the whole thing that is light weight and really simple.

It's NOT fair, don't take me wrong and trust me I am sorry. I'd love to get a law passed to outlaw the J-hook. And I'm sorry.


Hey Big Jimmy! Not sure I've understood/agree with your views on equity and I did not see a proposal for offering a solution. Also, I did not think you came off as aggressive and I'm glad you recognize the issue at hand as being unfair.

Because our anatomical "sameness"/"differences" was brought into the discussion I want to make sure we're on the same page about the meaning of equality vs equity. Equality aims to treat people the same, because Belegarth is co-gender there is assumed equality...I dearly hope we don't have men in Belegarth who consider themselves inherently better than women. On the other hand equity is giving intentional advantage and consideration to one group as it is given to another. There IS an equity issue in the garb rule because one sub group (fighting women) do not have the closest socially accepted equivalent for comfortable upper body wear. Fighting men have a choice of either going topless or wearing clothes whereas women have one option, it's not even the bare minimum. It can be challenging as a man to understand this equity issue because fighting men have two choices in the matter and are the majority. Not to mention fighting men have never experienced being kicked off the field for being "topless". I firmly believe sports bras (without extra fabric) significantly reduces the heat difference during fighting to a negligible level. Therefore wearing more clothing on a sport's bra reduces a woman's competitive edge.

I would encourage you to listen to a multitude of fighting women in your area. In Oregon the fighting women unanimously agree that a sports bra should be our choice. If we address the option of neutral sports bra as bare minimum in our garb rules it will: give fighting women another option and take our sport a step closer towards garb gender "fairness"... and of course the other option is requiring men to wear something on top. I think I've said my peace so feel free to discuss the word nuances on equity/equality via facebook. I'd rather give forum space for others.


Gaia, you know me, I only have one option. I can not, and will not be topless on the field. Granted, I understand, I have a choice. But the choice for me that is the only correct one involves wearing a shirt.

Also, I've spoken to several women in my area, and they all supported that a sports Bra should be covered, and thought the other side of the coin was, and this is a direct quote, "ridiculous." They don't want to run around in only a sports bra, so I feel that could influence their opinion.

And I didn't offer a different solution, because I believe the current solution is the best solution, or from another point of view, that there is no solution.




We are not asking females to go run around in there sports bra. THAT'S NOT THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION. BUT, they should have the option to do so. The WHOLE reason this got brought up was because a woman at Chaos Wars tried to go on the field topless, she was kicked off. Then she came on the field with a sports bra and another lady did too and they were kicked off because they didn't meet garb requirements while men around them fought topless. THIS SHOULDN'T HAPPEN. It's hot at Chaos Wars... usually 85 degrees plus during the day, you often want to wear as little clothes as possible. Just because most women don't want to wear a sports bra doesn't mean the few people that do should be punished, once again it should be an option.

_________________
I am the Princess of Beastly Power!

Unit: Catalyst
Realm: Babylon
House: Valkyries

Clytical damage!


Top
 OfflineProfile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
GuildWarsAlliance Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net. Modified by