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 Post subject: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:30 pm 
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The current rule states this:

1. Garb

1.1 Garb is defined as the clothing to be worn by all participants of Belegarth.
1.2 Minimum garb is the basic requirements for all participants. Minimum garb is defined as.

1.2.1 A tunic or tabard covering the torso.

1.2.1.1 Neutral colored t-shirts, with no visible printing, or sports bras may be worn underneath a tunic or tabard.
1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable for men.

1.2.2 Baggy pants or trousers covering the legs.
1.2.3 Skirts, Kilts, and Dresses are acceptable substitutes.
1.2.4 Footwear should be muted colors, boots are preferred athletic shoes should be of a dark color and not unnatural. Barefoot or Sandals are acceptable.
1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements.


I would like to propose a change to this:

1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but must be covered when possible by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item may be superficially altered when possible to met minimum garb requirements.



My reason for suggesting this change is that I feel we have wandered away from the logical reason this rule was added. My understanding is that it was meant to allow people to wear their needed elbow braces and such but that it wasn't meant as a way to get around rules and just wear modern items under the guise of safety. With the vague wording of the rule as it is nearly any item can be claimed as "medically necessary" and use that loop hole to wear things that would otherwise fail in regards to our rules. This change would allow us to keep a garb standard at a reasonable level while also allowing people to use the medical equipment they find necessary. It requires no sacrifice on either end.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:34 am 
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I like this wording. I think it embodies exactly what has been discussed recently, and seems like the most fair way of dealing with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:44 am 
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I think Juniper wins and I love this new proposal.

EDITED:

I didn't read this well enough the first time. I support this with one change:

I want a rule that codifies the expectation of modifying safety equipment, but does not technically require it. I prefer this because it specifies we care about making these items match garb, but it protects event coordinators, realm leaders, and others from liability and litigation.

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Last edited by Sir Anastasia on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:08 pm 
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I too, really support this proposal.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:33 pm 
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^^^ Yes, this. ^^^

I also support Arrakis' proposed change to 1.2.1.2,

From the current: 1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable for men.

To: 1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable as local jurrisdiction allows.

as it is discriminatory otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:34 pm 
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^I'd forgotten about Arrakis' proposal; it got buried in all the hubbub.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:21 am 
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I also agree with Arrakis' proposal - equality BAM.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:17 pm 
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I'm against any change the rules which makes it more difficult to wear safety equipment, including the need to modify or cover it. This also jumps back over the sunglasses debate. Whether you believe or disblieve that sunglasses are safety equipment, I'd like to see you get a rule passed that says that I have cover or modify my sunglasses.

The other thing is, who decides when it's "possilbe" to cover or modify something. It's always POSSIBLE, the extent of the effort required is what changes from a case to case and item to item basis. So, basically, this rule is stating that it must be covered "Whenever the herald wants it to be." Which means that it would be enforced to different extents by different people all across the country. In IL I'd be able to wear an elbow practice and a short sleeve shirt, I go out to chaos and what I've been told repeatedly is acceptable can easily be questioned, or might not be based solely on the opinion of the herald.

That's a can of worms I don't want anything to with.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:07 am 
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Big King Jimmy wrote:
In IL I'd be able to wear an elbow practice and a short sleeve shirt,.

You're saying that Illinois Heralds don't think it's possible to cover the elbows? Sheesh. AFAIK long sleeved tunics still exist there...

This type of rule works. There will be some differences in enforcement, but it's mostly common sense once people realize that it requires them to put in some effort to look better. Sunglasses are a sticking point -- of course it's possible, but it's substantially more difficult/costly than elbows/knees/cup/etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:28 am 
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* it. Stupid little words. I read Jimmy's comment and realized one little word keeps me from actually supporting this proposal:

"1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but must be covered when possible by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item may be superficially altered when possible to met minimum garb requirements."

I completely agree with Jimmy, and missed this one little word. I think the wording we want would be something like, "efforts should be made to cover when possible"

I know people will think this is toothless, but it does stress the importance of having better standards, while ensuring that a person never has to remove their safety gear to play. Why would we want that? Enforcement here is the real issue. Any herald that tells you to remove your safety gear in order to play because you can't cover it up is opening that event, realm, practice, person, themselves, and others to liability. I can imagine anyone who gets hurt after having to have removed their gear will be doubly interested in litigation.

We are at a tough crossroads. We need a rule that explains what we want to see and also protects us from consequences in the real world. I believe that many of the changes we want to see can come around through education and culture. I also think using these tools instead of rules creates fewer hard feelings.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:44 am 
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Personally, I like Blackwolfe's suggested edit to this:

Blackwolfe wrote:
1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but should be covered when possible by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item should be superficially altered when possible to meet minimum garb requirements.


"[...] should be covered when possible [...]". This makes coverage of safety equipment a strong suggestion, not a hard rule that can be misconstrued by various heralds.

It would put pressure on people to do their best to cover their safety equipment, but without risking forcing people off the field.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:48 am 
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Magpie Saegar wrote:
Big King Jimmy wrote:
In IL I'd be able to wear an elbow practice and a short sleeve shirt,.

You're saying that Illinois Heralds don't think it's possible to cover the elbows? Sheesh. AFAIK long sleeved tunics still exist there...

This type of rule works. There will be some differences in enforcement, but it's mostly common sense once people realize that it requires them to put in some effort to look better. Sunglasses are a sticking point -- of course it's possible, but it's substantially more difficult/costly than elbows/knees/cup/etc.


Yes, clearly that's what I meant.

No, I think that the fighters desire to wear a short sleeve tunic is more important than the need to cover his safety equipment, mostly because I see zero issues with exposed safety equipment.

On one side of the fence are people that, in this example, would say tie some fabric around it like a goblyn elbow cover. And it's not that I don't understand that side of the fence. I get it. I just have a different opinion.

The other side of the fence is NOT steet clothes and exposed foot ball shoulder pads. It's being able to openly wear glasses, gloves and braces without modifying them, putting as little barriers in place as possible to wear safety gear. The arguement that comes back is always "But the effort is tiny and insignificant!" Don't minunderstand me, I know that. But I still by my position that the barrier in place to that someone needs to overcome to wear safety gear should be zero, or as close as humanly possible, and I care about that far more than I care about appearance, especially when I don't agree about what does or does not look good on the field.

So, in response Magpie, I'm not an idiot and I'm not argumentative, I just don't agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:18 am 
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Thurat wrote:
Personally, I like Blackwolfe's suggested edit to this:

Blackwolfe wrote:
1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but should be covered when possible by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item should be superficially altered when possible to meet minimum garb requirements.


"[...] should be covered when possible [...]". This makes coverage of safety equipment a strong suggestion, not a hard rule that can be misconstrued by various heralds.

It would put pressure on people to do their best to cover their safety equipment, but without risking forcing people off the field.


Thank you for finding it! Yes, this is what I thought I was liking.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:27 am 
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How many threads talking about basically the same issue

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:09 pm 
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Definitely enough for me to get confused! :frog:

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:28 pm 
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Big King Jimmy wrote:
I'm against any change the rules which makes it more difficult to wear safety equipment, including the need to modify or cover it. This also jumps back over the sunglasses debate. Whether you believe or disblieve that sunglasses are safety equipment, I'd like to see you get a rule passed that says that I have cover or modify my sunglasses.

The other thing is, who decides when it's "possilbe" to cover or modify something. It's always POSSIBLE, the extent of the effort required is what changes from a case to case and item to item basis. So, basically, this rule is stating that it must be covered "Whenever the herald wants it to be." Which means that it would be enforced to different extents by different people all across the country. In IL I'd be able to wear an elbow practice and a short sleeve shirt, I go out to chaos and what I've been told repeatedly is acceptable can easily be questioned, or might not be based solely on the opinion of the herald.

That's a can of worms I don't want anything to with.



I'd like to point something out regarding your concerns and this wording:

Quote:
1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but should be covered when possible by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item should be superficially altered when possible to meet minimum garb requirements.


"should be covered when possible"

"should" Not must be. We're encouraging fighters to do more than wear modern clothes but if they so chose and quote medical need no one will stop them. Just like white Nikes. Not illegal, just unwanted.

Current wording:

1.2.4 Footwear should be muted colors, boots are preferred athletic shoes should be of a dark color and not unnatural. Barefoot or Sandals are acceptable.

I still stand by the statement that no change in rules is needed on the ground that currently fighters can say the need to wear something due to medical need and no one can by our rules stop them.

So if a change is made it's to make it easier to understand for everyone.

Rocca, personally, if all it took was saying sports bras are the equal to men shirtless I, Talon, would vote for that in a heart beat. It won't end there for many reasons stated.

I've heard at least five men in private say "it's not my fault women can't go topless" bummer additude, but there you go.

On that note, Sword Coast has moved to support the following change:

From:

1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable for men.

to

1.2.1.2 Wearing nothing on the torso is acceptable where allowed by local law.

Eventually it will say 'nudity' but that's for a future thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:41 pm 
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Because any of these threads is as good as the other: Does anyone know when the next voting period opens/closes?

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:33 pm 
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Next voting period is September, so...soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:36 pm 
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Big King Jimmy wrote:
So, in response Magpie, I'm not an idiot and I'm not argumentative, I just don't agree.

Fair point -- sorry for the attack. I see your point too, and disagree.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Doesn't changing the word to "should" imply that you don't have to and makes a rule vague when trying to enforce it? We "should" all wear minimum garb but we are having a huge debate because people don't. Adding the word "should" waters down the issue again whereas "must" states that it needs to be followed....and the additional "when possible" gives a little bit of room for the cases when it cannot be done.

I kind of support it anyway but half of the problem we have right now is that things are vague and not enforced. Wording things a little more stiffly like this gives heralds and other people a better leg to stand on when wanting to enforce rules.

Either way its worded the essence of the rule is the same but people who want loopholes will find them so I was trying to make it more stiff if anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:55 pm 
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Exactly. Looking for a compromise that will pass for both sides of the battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:07 pm 
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Once again, "must" might get you sued. Look at your house. Look at your car. As an EC, I can't enforce a rule where enforcement could mean removing uncovered/unmodified safety gear so that a person could get on to the field. If they then got injured, I don't want to loose my house and car. For those of you who think it will never happen, I was almost sued for Bel. My liability insurance was going to refuse to cover me (yes, we got insurance AND they tried to back out). My university covered the medical expenses of the person threatening us and did not boot the club from campus. It was a scary time where I thought I could loose my personal assets and worse, my campus registered Belegarth realm. I know that many people really care about garb, but I really care about my house which has my garb in it. We can strive for more than the minimum without making more rules, the same way we strive for better fighting, better honor, better sword tech, and everything else.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 8:17 am 
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I agree with Jimmy that "must be covered when possible" is too ambiguous. Adding this bit of clarification with "should be covered" in there will please both sides of this argument, I feel, but without altering the actual rule. It reinforces the desire of the sport to put garb as a priority, but not over safety.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:46 am 
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If I don't like the rule at all, I can't get behind "should" as the compromise.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:18 pm 
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I think of it as a written reminder that if you are wearing safety gear, like knee pads, and you could have them under or over your garb, you should remember to place them under if you can. No one is going to boot you for it, but it is courteous for you to try and blend mundane items in with your look. That's what the "should" rule means to me. It also lets people who have not met an established Bel realm know what we value.

When I envisioned this rule, I envisioned sports bras as this type of equipment. Should you modify it? Probably. Do you have to in order to play? No. I saw this as a central position for many issues.

I can respect your position, but I worry that since this keeps being brought up, we do need some sort of change to advance us beyond these discussions. I just want to make sure any changes are inclusive and emphasize safety over aesthetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:18 am 
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So, this might not matter to any of you, but I spent a lot of time today thinking about this and refining my position. I'm all for gloves, glasses, braces, whatever being worth without being covered. It doesn't bother me. But the sports bra thing DOES, and I was trying to figure out why. So I spent some time thinking about other situations where people have worn safety gear trying to find other examples where it just didn't feel right. And I finally found one! There's been maybe twice, where I've seen a male fighter fight in only a shoulder brace. Even I think it looks AWFUL.

So okay, I said to me, what do these two things have in common? What do they have in common?

When you wear a nice tunic, some pants, and gloves, what you look like to me is not someone who doesn't give **** about garb. You're wearing garb. You just look to me like a guy who care about garb AND your hands. Your already filling the "garb" requirement in my head, so I just don't care about any of the accessories.

But it's when your wearing medical equipment, and your NOT wearing garb that bothers me. Men can go topless, but if they do that and wear a shoulder brace, I don't think that's right. I feel like if you want medical equipment, you have to start by wearing clothing that is actual garb, and then you get medical equipment unlocked. Which is weird, because it's fairly contradictory to what I've been saying. But I think that the new line for me, which is a step forward from "All medical equipment, all the time, no problem." Is "If your going to wear medical equipment, you must have some sort of garb." I'd even support the "should" For medical equipment worn on the limbs and "Must" for medical equipment worn on the torso.

Jimmy

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:56 pm 
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I agree that 'should' is what the rule ought to be amended to rather than must.

i'm also of the opinion that it's much kinder to encourage a behavior from fighters that is liked that preventing them from doing something that is not in this case.

I also agree on the front of safety before aesthetics

as a way to clarify how the 'should' should be interpreted, what if we put more emphasis on what counts as safety equipment? Like agree on a list of what counts and what doesn't.

I say this with it in mind that not all safety equipment is really safety equipment for all people. For example, a sports bra is safety equipment for Ana, who will actually be in pain without it, but for me, it's just a personal choice. I won't be in pain with or without it because of how small my breasts are.
another example, person A has super sensitive eyes and is medically required to wear sunglasses at all times, while person B just wears them because she likes them or they make her slightly more comfortable(IE, they are nice, but she won't be hurt without them)

safety equipment varies person to person, but think an unbiased council of medics could help with classifications.


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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2013 6:27 pm 
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It's treacherous grounds to start defining what is or is not safety equipment. Being inclusive is OK, but once we start excluding things we open ourselves up to liability.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:01 am 
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Just going to point out here that using the word "should" makes the rule utterly impossible to even enforce. You're best off just to leave the rule alone if you throw "should" in there. A rule that can't be enforced is a waste of time to debate over. No need to even discuss a compromise because it would just be a wordier version of what we got.

I like that safety equipment should be covered but saying "Oh but you don't have to" at the same time more or less is just stupid. It will not change anything.

Also you can't make them take off safety equipment like Ana said because of the obvious issues.

This rule change just isn't worth it. As a marshal it would stare me in the face as a written rule that cannot be enforced which for me means you shouldn't have the rule at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:17 am 
Gladiator
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It's a matter of codifying the intent of the rules. In the DBGA Manual of Arms, there is tons of prose to go with their rules, along with the 1.#.#. style that the BoW makes use of, and though that makes for a wordy rule book, I feel like the intent of the rules is well spelled out, and better understood.

I'm not saying "let's just do things like X organization", but it's a good example of what these kind of rules can do for us. They help new people get a feel for the expectations of the group, without having to be here for ages and ages.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:59 pm 
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Kage wrote:
Just going to point out here that using the word "should" makes the rule utterly impossible to even enforce.

I like that safety equipment should be covered but saying "Oh but you don't have to" at the same time more or less is just stupid. It will not change anything.

This rule change just isn't worth it. As a marshal it would stare me in the face as a written rule that cannot be enforced which for me means you shouldn't have the rule at all.


yes, You are correct. It cannot be enforced, as it truly cannot be enforced right now. However, I/we obviously do not feel it's a waste of time to at the very least say, "hey, wear what you want, if you think you need it we're not going to stop you, but could you would you please at least try to **** make it fit in with what we're doing?"

There are those that will comply if it's written nicely in our rules, just as there are those that will say "it doesn't say it should be period anywhere"

That, is worth the debate and effort in our eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:00 pm 
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Thurat wrote:
It's a matter of codifying the intent of the rules. They help new people get a feel for the expectations of the group, without having to be here for ages and ages.


^THIS

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:51 pm 
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I agree with both of you I really do, because I would love to see people cover their modern equipment or at least make the attempt. This issue is that you can ask all you want but I'm afraid from personal experience that you will get looked at in the eye and told to go * your selves. Codifying it is all well and good but if the person doesn't want to cover it you can't do much from there. I have a full set of gear from Semi-Pro Football and there is nothing and I mean nothing that can disallow me from wearing it over my garb and saying "but it's for my safety." You wouldn't be able to tell me I can't wear it and I wouldn't have to take it off to fight. Now you could kick me off the field because of it, but then I take it off and get hurt. Now you would be seeing it from Ana's point of view.

I know a fix for it at a realm level but not at a national level. My fix at the realm level would allow the person to wear non covered safety equipment and still fight but would limit them as to what that person can use. Basically it's the same rule as some realms have of "No garb; single blue only." The only change the realms would have to enforce is changing "no garb" to "non covered safety equipment." This way they can still fight, and you are not telling them they cant fight because of the equipment only that they can't fight with what they want to. If they take it off because of that then that's their problem. They were allowed to fight with their safety equipment still and got hurt because they accepted the risk off taking it off at that point. Would a court see it that way who knows.

I really wish that something could be done at the national level. I even love the wording. I just don't see it changing anything. I do wish you best of luck if you feel that it's not a waste of your time. I should have worded it as I see it as a waste of my time to debate it, and for that I apologize.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:37 pm 
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ok...read these two different wordings and tell me what you think....

Option 1
1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but should be covered, when possible, by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item may be superficially altered when possible to met minimum garb requirements.

Option 2
1.2.5 Any piece of modern equipment or clothing required out of medical necessity overrules the minimum garb requirements but is expected to be covered, when possible, by clothing that meets the minimum garb requirements, or the item may be superficially altered when possible to met minimum garb requirements.



Personally, I prefer option 2 as it states an expectation but not a hard requirement. It still leaves in the "when possible" bit to allow for things that simply can't be changed and I think it allows for enough flexibility to cover all the safety bases while still stating what ~should~ be done in order to try and stay within the rules. I realize it is true that it still leaves heralds without the proper enforcement of the rule but we have to start some where. Anything can be claimed as safety equipment if someone tries hard enough but this will at least be a way for us to help moderate the superficial appearance of such equipment.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2013 10:23 pm 
Gladiator
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I like wording one. It needs some grammatical adjustment, but otherwise covers the issue best. "Expected", in wording two, could be misinterpreted, and I feel that it will be, by many to mean "must", which would make it into the issue that we're trying to avoid.

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 Post subject: Re: Proposed Change to "medical necessity equipment"
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:37 pm 
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So that other game just got over it and has this: 5.1.12 - Rigid plastic safety equipment for knee and elbow protection is permitted but must be concealed under clothing. It does not count as armor. Seems easy enough and I've not seen or heard anything that says using he word must creates any issues for those who chose to play by those rules.

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