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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:21 pm 
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Here are a couple studies done by other Boffing games in regards to round-tipped arrows. In the end it all comes down to construction, but that being said, consistently the round tipped arrows penetrated less than a flat (or cubed) head.

http://www.snowlantern.com/mythbuster/index.php?page=home
http://www.idv-engineering.de/html/eye_safety.html

Currently, the only thing that bars these arrows from passing is that the center of the round head templates about 1/8th of an inch.

If we used the 2.5" template rule the way I was taught round-tip arrows still pass.
Killian wrote:
As long as no daylight was visible thru the template. Circumference rule was satisfied.


But since there is a popular train of thought that if it at all templates, then it is illegal, my arrows don't get passed at events.

Furthermore, if you have been at Chaos Wars since, oh Chaos 12, you have been getting shot with these arrows. The ONLY difference, is I wouldnt have to flatten the head (which actually breaks down the foam quicker, making the arrows less safe). Sure, the arrows don't feel like a pillow to the head, but I have always arched with the understanding that each arrow is a babies fist, punching into peoples faces. Its not comfortable, but it is safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Here's my problem with the bounce back rule: The target being shot makes all the difference. When an arrow bounces back during weapons check, it's all about where you hit the person on their back. Often times (pretty much exclusively) I see it when the target is shot right above the shoulder blade, where the angle of the back points upwards (I know that doesn't make a TON of sense) so that once the arrow impacts it's sent backwards and into the air.

The point is, I think that if you take any arrow, and shoot it in the same spot on the back with the same bow, the result is going to be the same.

A more extreme example would be to place a round shield at about a 30 degree angle to perpendicular to the ground (Ie, give it a little lean), especially an all foam round, and full draw into it at 20 feed, any arrow is going to go flying back. It's a soft flexible material meeting a soft flexible material. It's not dissipating the force into the target, but instead directing into kinetic energy pushing the arrow backwards. From the perspective of the target getting hit, that's fantastic. If we try to maximize the build the negate the bounceback, it will be by trying to have the target absorb as much of that energy as possible. That's not something to aspire to.

As for half draw, I think that there is currently a ton of archer hate currently due to a lack of following (And historic lack of policing) the half draw rule. I think the solution to that is better enforcement of the rule, not changing it. Also, heralds that are better capable of judging what 15' (or 20') would also be helpful, although I don't really have a solution to propose for that. Just like Par said, most people are shocked at how close 15' is, including heralds who try to reprimand you for not half drawing when you just shot someone from 18', I feel like those same people are going to start expecting me to half draw at 25' now, which is not helping either.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:29 pm 
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Wrong post, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:19 am 
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Jimmy, your observation about targets affecting bounceback is completely valid. One of the reasons why we wanted to 2 shot/2 bow system is because this way we (usually) have two very different backs that receive arrow. (Just playing off the current way we do Arrow Check). The idea is that if any arrow fails the current double blind system with excessive bounceback, then it is codified in the rules as to why it fails.

of course, rule 0 always applies, and marshall/checker can pull a weapon they see as being unsafe at anytime.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:05 am 
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Big King Jimmy wrote:
Here's my problem with the bounce back rule: The target being shot makes all the difference.


Yep. Me too.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:06 am 
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Right, but it's not even the material, it's where on the back. You're putting a rule in place that I feel, can fail an arrow randomly, any arrow, any time, due to a weird shot and how it connects will fail that test. That means that any arrow has the ability to fail. When I go to weapons check, if something fails of mine and I know what I'm doing and pre check my gear, it shouldn't be a surprise. Hit is one thing, but this is totally random.

And it still doesn't address the point that you're encouraging arrows that transfer more force into their target, which results in a heavier hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:54 am 
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Big King Jimmy wrote:
Right, but it's not even the material, it's where on the back. You're putting a rule in place that I feel, can fail an arrow randomly, any arrow, any time, due to a weird shot and how it connects will fail that test. That means that any arrow has the ability to fail. When I go to weapons check, if something fails of mine and I know what I'm doing and pre check my gear, it shouldn't be a surprise. Hit is one thing, but this is totally random.

And it still doesn't address the point that you're encouraging arrows that transfer more force into their target, which results in a heavier hit.


What I dont understand about the last sentence is, we already test for that, being a hit test. Also, I completely disagree that more force is being transferred to the target with a round head. Maybe the most initial impact is heavier because its focused, but it also disperses force far more effectively than a cube.

I am absolutely okay with not codifying bouceback, but since people kept bringing it up as an "issue," a couple of us felt that this was one way to take care of it.

I still maintain that given the right bow, Ill fail any arrow on any back for hit and or bounce back.

The double blind/two bow rule writing was an effort to make sure that our current way of testing assured us that it was on two different targets, fired from two max poundage bows.

Also, as an archer who constantly "fights" bounceback and roundheads and stuff. This is something I know about PRIOR to weapons check like you say. I've found that each weapon checker has a completely different definition on what is a safe amount for an arrow to return.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:12 pm 
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Bounceback should be measured against a standard target, for example a 24" x 24" square of 3/4" plywood suspended from a rope that's 4' long via two 3/4" holes 1" from the top and sides. There's no reason someone's back has to suffer through this.

Additionally, there should be testing done to determine an appropriate bounce-back distance for this target. It may prove that this surface produces more (or less) bounceback than a shield or body. Right now the current rule addresses a legitimate safety issue, but in a very ad hoc way.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:10 am 
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Brutus is on the same train I am. That's what I'm getting at. Sorry Plithut, you keep bringing this back to rounded arrow heads, which makes sense as that pertains directly to you. But for me, this is the bounceback rule thread, and that's what I care about. If any arrow can pass or fail a test at any time due simply to dumb luck, that's not a test, that's a lottery.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:08 pm 
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Word. I can absolutely respect that. My intention is to film myself shooting; 2# coreless, a 4# coreless, and a a 2# cored shield in addition to a skinny back, a fat back, and a piece of plywood. These will all be done at 15' respectively at full draw (20' if this current vote passes).

I havent been able to assemble all of my materials (backs at this point) to shoot this. I will make sure to have it done before next voting period.

Edit: Also, yes, I am trying to find a rule writing that can fail any arrow at anytime if it fails for bounce-back. We already fail arrows under Rule 0 for this, but have no standard to work off of.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:49 am 
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Plithut wrote:
Word. I can absolutely respect that. My intention is to film myself shooting; 2# coreless, a 4# coreless, and a a 2# cored shield in addition to a skinny back, a fat back, and a piece of plywood. These will all be done at 15' respectively at full draw (20' if this current vote passes).

I havent been able to assemble all of my materials (backs at this point) to shoot this. I will make sure to have it done before next voting period.

Edit: Also, yes, I am trying to find a rule writing that can fail any arrow at anytime if it fails for bounce-back. We already fail arrows under Rule 0 for this, but have no standard to work off of.



I did a version of this. I did not film it. I tested 16 arrows that vary in age from 3 years to 6 months old using a digitally measured 35 lbs "Bear" bow I shot 15' at a plaster wall, a piece of 1/2" plywood set against a standing chair resulting in a 20 degree angle, a 6" thick plasti-dip shield and a Forged Foam shield. The results were 2' to 3' return from the wall, 3' to 4' from the plywood, at a much higher arc due to angle deflection, 5' to 7' from the plasti-dip shield, and 10' to 12' from the Forged Foam shield.

Shooting against a foam surface did return the expected higher amount of bounce back, I was a little surprised to see how much difference it made between the hard wall and the foam face.

I plan to run the same test against multiple backs at practice.

Note, these arrows did all pass at TBA during the play testing.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:12 am 
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Plithut wrote:
Jimmy, your observation about targets affecting bounceback is completely valid. One of the reasons why we wanted to 2 shot/2 bow system is because this way we (usually) have two very different backs that receive arrow...


The rule needs to say "two different targets" or some-such, saying two different bows it's easy to imagine some realm some where using the same back with two archers firing the same arrow. They'd be doing it by the book and still doing it wrong. We need to focus more on not leaving important things like this out of rules writing. "the spirit of the rule" and "they do it like this at such and such event" is a poor way to teach isolated realms how to play correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:34 am 
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I want to point out that the double blind system we use to check is not at all codified. As a weapons checker, I COULD fail an arrow the first time someone says it hurts. Now, I am not saying the rule doesn't need a rewrite, but we are already operating with the double blind system.

The aim is to not increase time during check, but have some form of codified way of checking.

If we are going to add this in, I also suggest we re-write the archery rules to include the use of the double-blind system that we already have in place.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:32 am 
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Yah, in rethinking about this, I'm voting against the motion not because I don't believe in the rule, but because I don't think the method used to test it is fair or effective. HOW we test things isn't in our rules, just the criteria to measure against.

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