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 Post subject: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:28 am 
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I have been on a personal crusade these last couple years to get round-tipped arrows into our game. They fly better than flat faced arrows and the force is more evenly distributed throughout the entire head of the arrow.

I have been using Semi-circular Arrowheads for the last 5 years in Bele. They have failed at two events for the template rule (Chaos Wars XV and Battle for the Ring VI). The tip of the arrowhead emerges through the 2.5" hole the most marginal amount. I believe that semi-circular arrows should not be failed for this rule.

My argument is based upon the fact that we already make a rule concession for swords with a semi-circular tip.

Book of War wrote:
1.3.3. Two and one-half inch rule-No surface on a striking edge (sword tip, arrow head, spear head, javelin head, etc.) whether designed for stabbing or not, may readily pass more than 0.5 inch through a 2.5 inch hole; swords with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule


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Image

Kyrian and I came up with some basic guidelines for checking round-headed arrows, which would only require a small addition to the BoW.

"Arrows with semi-circular tips must not readily pass more than 0.5 inch through a 2.0 inch hole."

I believe this to be in the spirit of the rules as well as something to easily reference.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:08 am 
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I'm fine with semi circular. I don't think they are any less safe. What i really worry about is the foam that some people use now that causes really bad bounce back? I think that is an issue that needs to be addressed as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:23 am 
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Yeah I'm down with em as well, as long as they're build correctly obviously. I take a lot of arrows to the face, and the thud from the flat faced ones is what I find hurts my face the most.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:13 pm 
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Cyric wrote:
I'm fine with semi circular. I don't think they are any less safe. What i really worry about is the foam that some people use now that causes really bad bounce back? I think that is an issue that needs to be addressed as well.


Bounce-back is an issue that Kyrian and I are trying to address, but there are SO MANY factors involved that is ridiculous.

Bounce back is grey area because of your target; how skinny/fat they are, what angle they were shot at, as well as the amount of draw behind it.

Really, it just sounds like we need to take our archers aside and re-educate when full draw is appropriate, or NOT to fire straight on into a line fight, or actually LEARN why arching is dangerous.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:18 pm 
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To summarize our discussion about bounce-back, we drilled down to the root cause: the nock is reason bounce-back is dangerous because it has to serve two diametrically opposed needs. It must serve as a sturdy point for the string to attach to the arrow while simultaneously being safe enough to not penetrate an eye.

The options we narrowed it down to were:

1) Mandatory eye protection.

2) Maximum bounceback distance. This would be the easiest to implement since it could be measured as a part of the arrow hit test. For example, if we said that arrows could not bounce more than 15', any arrow that bounced past the archer during the hit test would fail.

3) Arguably the most difficult option would be to modify the arrow nock so that it can still be functional for shooting but not be a danger to an eye. In the SCA, due to the requirement for bar grills, they use anti-penetration devices (APD) to keep the arrow from going too far into an SCA helmet: Image. It is designed to replace the arrow fletchings and keep the nock from going more than a 1/2" into a helm. The round part of the APD is at least 1" in diameter since bar grills can have a spacing of no more than one inch.

Returning to the discussion about semi-circular arrowheads, I'm OK with these and given our blinding flash of the obvious that rounded arrowheads like Plithut's could be easily tested simply by using the 2" hole template means that they could be tested without a significant alteration to our current processes.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:18 pm 
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I'm curious how much faster these arrows would travel. In other games that allow rounded heads the arrows move faster than your average Bel arrow, making them harder to avoid. In those games, players are allowed to block with weapons in the same manner as a shield (put the weapon the flight path but not slap at the arrow). There's usually a penalty in that the weapon is "broken" for the remainder of that game, but it balances the speed.

In Bel, I have found that the slower arrows require the archer to not have to worry about passive weapon blocks to keep it fair for them. Would these more aerodynamic tips later the game balance too much in the archer's favor?


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 3:57 pm 
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I've never heard the argument that arrows passing through weapons is to keep archery balanced in favor of the archer. The reasons I've always heard are (1) it's not realistic to attempt to block arrows with weapons because real weapons and real arrows are much smaller, making interception less likely and arrows move much faster making it almost impossible and (2) It's not at all safe to attempt to strike an arrow because a moving weapon could cause the arrow to rotate as it flies through the air, making it more closely approximate a real arrow if it were to strike a target knock-first.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:45 pm 
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The safety thing makes sense which is why passive blocking is the correct way to do it. Arrows bouncing off a sword will bounce as far as off a shield.

The realism argument is silly. We're swinging brightly colored foam sticks and people dress up like monsters. Realism should always take a backseat to playability, safety, and fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:09 pm 
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Realism might be the third on the list (Safety, Playability, Realism), but that does not make it a non-issue. Arrows going through weapons keep durps from trying to "passively" block arrows with weapons. Both of the reasons Brutus mentioned are valid, and the fact that the current rules work shows Playability (just because another game handles the situation differently does not mean we must follow suit).

Speaking of which, which games allow weapon blocking of arrows in the same way as a shield? (Darkon - class ability. Amtgard - weapon is shattered.) If there is a penalty (such as weapon being "broken") then weapons do not block arrows "in the same manner as shields."

Kyrian, what is your experiences with the SCA APD devices (I've heard meh things about them from archers, but I'm not super hip to the local SCA scene)? And would they even be valid in our cases, since we're not wearing bar-slatted helms?

Not in an attempt to derail the original proposal, but I thought I had heard that shaving a thin sliver off the face of the rounded arrows:
- Allowed them to pass template (since they only fail template by a tiny margin as-is/unmodified)
- Reduced the bounceback a great deal.

From my personal experience locally cross-gaming, my unmodified round face arrows were failing because they were deflecting up into the face of the arrow-test target (he happens to be sloped like a main battle tank). But after flattening the front slightly, they have been passing fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:22 pm 
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I like the way you pretty much mis-used most of what I said. An arrow is blocked passively by a weapon in the same manner as a shield because it bounces off it in the same manner. This in reference to the safety issue of the back of an arrow spinning around and stabbing someone in the face.

The playability issue comes into question if the new design allows arrows to move faster, thus altering the balance of play. I'm not arguing to not make this change, I'm asking if people are willing to look at what this change will effect and make appropriate adjustments to the rules to maintain balance.

Since we're talking about allowing an arrow design that is prevalent in other games, it makes sense to look at how they govern their archery rules to see if we need to make any adjustments.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 9:37 pm 
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Rasheab wrote:

Kyrian, what is your experiences with the SCA APD devices (I've heard meh things about them from archers, but I'm not super hip to the local SCA scene)? And would they even be valid in our cases, since we're not wearing bar-slatted helms?


I had a chance to shoot them when I was back in Rhun. I wasn't a fan. The way they shot and loaded felt very different from both Bel and normal target arrows. I was unable to dial in a solid aiming point due to how differently they flew compared to Bel arrows. However, I'm sure that in time I would get used to them much like I got used to Bel arrow flight characteristics.

I mentioned the APDs because it is a solution that one group came up with deal with potential bounce-back. Perhaps it might inspire some of our engineer/crafter-types to look at possible options for making nocks safer.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 10:54 am 
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Rasheab wrote:
Not in an attempt to derail the original proposal, but I thought I had heard that shaving a thin sliver off the face of the rounded arrows:
- Allowed them to pass template (since they only fail template by a tiny margin as-is/unmodified)
- Reduced the bounceback a great deal.

From my personal experience locally cross-gaming, my unmodified round face arrows were failing because they were deflecting up into the face of the arrow-test target (he happens to be sloped like a main battle tank). But after flattening the front slightly, they have been passing fine.


My personal experience after 5 years of using them:

Shaving the tip off causes more erratic flight patterns, but does indeed help with bounce back, unless its a straight shot. I only shaved them off because Xooyan was unwilling to listen to my arguments because of templating.

I dont know why I must point this out, but the physics of a ball mean the force is continually, and evenly, distributed throughout the entire striking surface when it hits. Coupled with the fact they are built onto a 2.5"+ closed cell base, this makes them safer all around.

Edhellen/Forged Foam builds hit just as hard, and when they fail, you are receiving a 2" closed cell can through pulverized open cell foam.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:34 am 
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My experience with rounded tips is that they are less likely to have a major structural failure over time because their impact is distributed over the entire quantity of foam, as opposed to locally on a flat plane.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:51 am 
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Laoric wrote:
My experience with rounded tips is that they are less likely to have a major structural failure over time because their impact is distributed over the entire quantity of foam, as opposed to locally on a flat plane.


I cannot tell you how many people do not understand this.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 11:58 am 
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I think the only aspect to this discussion worth considering is the bounceback. Even a conventional arrow that has NO open-cell on it does not possess the potential for injury that a nock flying backwards does. If it can be demonstrated by an uninterested party that these round-tips do not increase bounce-back then they are worth considering. If they have a significant increase in bounceback then I would not support them.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:20 pm 
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Brutus - would this be the time to point out that we are the only game that has a less than a 20' half draw rule? I think that would kill all bounce-back arguments right away.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:29 pm 
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I think this a lost in translation/revision rule... Old school rules were used as follows... As long as no daylight was visible thru the template. Circumference rule was satisfied ...
So I'd be all for making arrow checking rules their own section with video from a war council appointed group to create 100% official rules and have a base line to work from

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 12:45 pm 
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Plithut wrote:
Brutus - would this be the time to point out that we are the only game that has a less than a 20' half draw rule? I think that would kill all bounce-back arguments right away.



Amtgard requires 1/2 draw at 20' or less. Dunno about some of the others.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 24, 2014 2:18 pm 
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Laoric wrote:
Plithut wrote:
Brutus - would this be the time to point out that we are the only game that has a less than a 20' half draw rule? I think that would kill all bounce-back arguments right away.



Amtgard requires 1/2 draw at 20' or less. Dunno about some of the others.


Dagorhir is the same:

4.5.1.1 - Yellow weapons must be used at half-drawn (arrows) or thrown with half force (javelins) at ranges closer than 20 feet.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:52 am 
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I was shot down by most of the Midwest war council reps and archers when I suggested a 20ft half draw rule in light of having multiple eye injuries at Wolfpack opener last year

I would back this rule 100% and think it would do more for safety than any other rule we have for archery

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:23 pm 
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Didn't the bounce-back dissipate to a less threatening level after a dozen or so shots into a wall?

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:58 pm 
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I have heard from archers on my staff that the bow also can effect the amount that an arrow bounces back, and that the "feet per second" can alter the degree of arrow bounce-back. I believe at BftR, we checked bounce back for an arrow with two different bows for this reason - the arrows had to fail for bounce back when shot from two different bows to demonstrate a consistent problem with the arrows (bow independent).

Note: I am not a real archer. Just parroting things I hear from my staff.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:29 pm 
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Ana your getting into a WHOLE different issue of how terrible our test is for bows. 35# at 28 inches varies per bow quite greatly depending on the rest distance the string has from the bow. Either way both bows are safe by the rules, and while you can fail them as weapons checkers for a concern, really the arrows would be the issue there.

If we want to address bounce back it needs to be a seperate rule. something along the lines of.

When an arrow strikes it make bounce back on its original direction more then X number of feet.

(that wording sucks but you get what im saying).

It has nothing to do with round headed arrows. Though, that still would need to be addressed via a different rule. What i dont understand is why we dont just change

...swords with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule
to
...weapons with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule.

It would allows bats to have a semi circular tip as well as clubs and never have an issue with arrows.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 5:23 pm 
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Sorry, what I meant was that the arrows had to fail for bounce back on 2 different bows (not that the bows failed!). Nothing to do with checking a bow. I'll go edit that for clarification.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:41 am 
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Varadin wrote:
It has nothing to do with round headed arrows. Though, that still would need to be addressed via a different rule. What i dont understand is why we dont just change

...swords with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule
to
...weapons with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule.

It would allows bats to have a semi circular tip as well as clubs and never have an issue with arrows.


Wow, that actually makes it easier than I thought.

Also, I would be in favor of changing Half draw to 20'.

Codify bounce back as, when checking do a double blind (like hit tests, two nos before failure), if the arrow readily returns to the archer (20') it fails for bounce-back.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:48 am 
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Plithut wrote:
Really, it just sounds like we need to take our archers aside and re-educate when full draw is appropriate, or NOT to fire straight on into a line fight, or actually LEARN why arching is dangerous.

^ this. Unless someone can engineer a way to make a nock safe this is the best course of action. Regardless of 'bounce back' even dropping an arrow straight down into a melee holds the risk of the nock causing real injury.
At this point in time anyone can buy a bow and some arrows and enter combat at an open event as an "Archer" no previous experience required.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 11:33 am 
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Plithut wrote:
Varadin wrote:
It has nothing to do with round headed arrows. Though, that still would need to be addressed via a different rule. What i dont understand is why we dont just change

...swords with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule
to
...weapons with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule.

It would allows bats to have a semi circular tip as well as clubs and never have an issue with arrows.


Wow, that actually makes it easier than I thought.

Also, I would be in favor of changing Half draw to 20'.

Codify bounce back as, when checking do a double blind (like hit tests, two nos before failure), if the arrow readily returns to the archer (20') it fails for bounce-back.


I can get behind these.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Reverend wrote:
Plithut wrote:
Varadin wrote:
It has nothing to do with round headed arrows. Though, that still would need to be addressed via a different rule. What i dont understand is why we dont just change

...swords with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule
to
...weapons with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule.

It would allows bats to have a semi circular tip as well as clubs and never have an issue with arrows.


Wow, that actually makes it easier than I thought.

Also, I would be in favor of changing Half draw to 20'.

Codify bounce back as, when checking do a double blind (like hit tests, two nos before failure), if the arrow readily returns to the archer (20') it fails for bounce-back.


I can get behind these.


So can I. I'm assuming we would also change the arrow hit test distance to 20'.

Hmmm...I think I will update my archery training courses to encourage half-draw at 20' instead of 15'.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Kyrian wrote:
Hmmm...I think I will update my archery training courses to encourage half-draw at 20' instead of 15'.


For classes, I'd have a 20' bright colored rope you can lay out for a visual aid. I've been horrified on several occasions what people guess 15' to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 5:50 pm 
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I'm a fan of these changes. Go go gadget war council motion!


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:05 am 
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I agree with everything here. Thunder Guard passes these arrows already and recently stopped using them because they wouldn't pass at events. I like the idea of half draw at 20' instead of 15' and Thunder Guard would get behind any motion put forth for both the arrows and the draw distance.

I am not sure how things get handled as far as archery training out west, but I would love to see something happen at our events similar to what happen at Rag. All archers have to pass an "archery safety" course before they can get onto the field. I didn't take it, but I know it covers at what distance to half draw and at what distance to full draw, calling shots ect. People who complete it get a wrist band for their bow and themselves. I feel that it would go a long way towards preventing full draw within 15' or 20' (if we go to it) injuries. The addition of such a requirement wouldn't be a bad idea in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:18 am 
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Laoric wrote:
I'm a fan of these changes. Go go gadget war council motion!


Next voting block is in March. I would like to have a rough draft of the rules ready to submit to WC once it opens.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 11:58 am 
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I am in favor of the 20' rule. Its scary when you actually measure how close 15' really is. And I think that most people shoot at the 20' range anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:33 pm 
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I could totally be wrong, but I believe those are the arrow kits made by Fitz Caliston? They look similar at the least. I bought about half a dozen which he shaved enough of the tip off to not pass (which is hardly any as mentioned before). I could get them to pass normal hit tests, but at Wolfpack opener 2013, people were complaining enough about face shots to have them taken off the field. Mind you this could have actually been from the shaved tips, I didn't have non shaved ones for comparison, but I'm just saying there were mixed feelings. I thought they were fine and enjoyed them though. Just throwing my two cents out there, a lot of the complaints were from other people using them on the field though, so I can't fully attest to how close they were fired from.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:58 pm 
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Well here is the half draw rule motion:

[[Realm]] motions that the following rule "3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 15 feet (4.5 meters) is required." be amended as follows:

"3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 20 feet (6 meters) is required."

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:07 am 
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Glass wrote:
I could totally be wrong, but I believe those are the arrow kits made by Fitz Caliston? They look similar at the least. I bought about half a dozen which he shaved enough of the tip off to not pass (which is hardly any as mentioned before). I could get them to pass normal hit tests, but at Wolfpack opener 2013, people were complaining enough about face shots to have them taken off the field. Mind you this could have actually been from the shaved tips, I didn't have non shaved ones for comparison, but I'm just saying there were mixed feelings. I thought they were fine and enjoyed them though. Just throwing my two cents out there, a lot of the complaints were from other people using them on the field though, so I can't fully attest to how close they were fired from.


They are not Fitz arrows, although he and I use similar building techniques.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:46 pm 
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So, the current rule reads:

Quote:
1.4.8.5. Arrow striking surfaces may not easily pass more than 0.5 inches through a 2.5 inch diameter hole. No part of the arrow.s striking surface may be less than 2.5 inches in any direction.


Quote:
3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 15 feet is required.


How do these sound as modifications & additions to the rules?

3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 20 feet is required.

1.4.8.5. Flat arrow striking surfaces may not easily pass more than 0.5 inches through a 2.5 inch diameter hole. No part of the arrow's striking surface may be less than 2.5 inches in any direction.

1.4.8.5.1. As an exception, a hemispherical arrowhead may not easily pass more than .5 inches through a 2.0 inch diameter hole.

1.4.8.11. Arrows may not have excessive bounceback which is defined as returning more than 20' when tested with at least two different bows.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Kyrian wrote:
1.4.8.11. Arrows may not have excessive bounceback which is defined as returning more than 20' when tested with at least two different bows.


I like the half draw at 20' suggestion, but take some issue with this one. Bounceback, to me, seems a safety measure designed to prevent horizontal return of arrows in linefighting, which may often happen closer than 20'.

I'd think we need to create weapons checker discretion about how the arrows are bouncing back, rather than a hard fast rule on distance.

It also has to prevent things like people catching catching a bouncing arrow's nock midswing in a fairly open field, like happened at EQ last year.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:04 am 
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Thanks for posting it here Kyrian. I think it reads really well, my only change is bolded.

Kyrian wrote:
1.4.8.11. Arrows may not have excessive bounceback which is defined as returning more than 20' when tested with at least two different 35# bows.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:53 pm 
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Can we amend the rule to leave javelins at half throw of 15ft... This is a rarely enforced rule but it makes javelins mildly useless as effective range is about 15-20ft...

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:57 pm 
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Are we motioning for this this period?

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:03 am 
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Id like to motion it this voting period. Don't we need someone with Voting/Speaking rights to bring it up though? Otherwise I will blast it in there right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:40 am 
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Am I the only person that checks arrows at 10ft full draw to the back? If it passes at this distance then it's safe at 20 for sure... I'm pretty rigorous about hit testing arrows to a higher level to ensure safety...

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:05 pm 
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Sir Killian wrote:
Am I the only person that checks arrows at 10ft full draw to the back? If it passes at this distance then it's safe at 20 for sure... I'm pretty rigorous about hit testing arrows to a higher level to ensure safety...


I've been pushing for it out here, but I'm meeting a lot of push-back for the idea.

There've been a few that are coming around to the idea, but it's a slow process.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:13 pm 
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Kyrian wrote:
3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 20 feet is required.

1.4.8.5. Flat arrow striking surfaces may not easily pass more than 0.5 inches through a 2.5 inch diameter hole. No part of the arrow's striking surface may be less than 2.5 inches in any direction.

1.4.8.5.1. As an exception, a hemispherical arrowhead may not easily pass more than .5 inches through a 2.0 inch diameter hole.

1.4.8.11. Arrows may not have excessive bounceback which is defined as returning more than 20' when tested with at least two different bows.


I should have done this sooner, as voting has begun, but I'd like to point out that the wording of this rule does not encompass all arrow-head geometries. It only stipulates the template to use for "flat" arrowheads, and hemispherical ones. What about arrows built with a cube of open-cell that are distorted due to tension by their covers into something that is rounded, but couldn't be considered hemispherical?

I understand the intent of the "flat" wording as an attempt to draw a clear distinction, but I believe it makes our rules difficult for someone who is cut off from other realms to accurately interpret what is meant. I think removal of the word "flat" from 1.4.8.5. makes this rule easy to interpret by presenting first the general rule, and then specifying the only exception via 1.4.8.5.1.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 3:36 pm 
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Brutus, I think your concern is valid. I would, however, suggest that this be easily answered by the checker asking the owner of the arrows of how they were originally built. With only what, two realms responding so far, I think we are early enough to change the wording by dropping the word Flat from it.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:45 pm 
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Regarding the proposed bounceback rule
Quote:
1.4.8.11. Arrows may not have excessive bounce back which is defined as returning more than 20' when tested with at least two different 35# bows.


(1) The distance should be based on some sort of average or actual statistic gathered from testing many arrows, or some sort of logical safety reason. 20' seems like an arbitrary number, its only advantage being that it's easy to remember because it matches up with the new proposed half-draw rule. Why was 20' chosen as a bounceback distance?

(2) The rule is unclear. Does it need to pass on both bows, or only one? This thread seems to clarify that it only needs to pass on one bow, however the wording on the rule is ambiguous.

(3) As previously mentioned, what are we shooting at? Testing against a wall will yield different results than testing against a shield. Testing on a skinny person will be different than on a larger person. Should clarify that testing should be done against a wall or solid vertical surface i believe.

I absolutely support the idea of having a maximum allowable bounceback. However I think the rule needs to be better defined.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 1:46 am 
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Akroth wrote:
Regarding the proposed bounceback rule
Quote:
1.4.8.11. Arrows may not have excessive bounce back which is defined as returning more than 20' when tested with at least two different 35# bows.


(1) The distance should be based on some sort of average or actual statistic gathered from testing many arrows, or some sort of logical safety reason. 20' seems like an arbitrary number, its only advantage being that it's easy to remember because it matches up with the new proposed half-draw rule. Why was 20' chosen as a bounceback distance?

(2) The rule is unclear. Does it need to pass on both bows, or only one? This thread seems to clarify that it only needs to pass on one bow, however the wording on the rule is ambiguous.

(3) As previously mentioned, what are we shooting at? Testing against a wall will yield different results than testing against a shield. Testing on a skinny person will be different than on a larger person. Should clarify that testing should be done against a wall or solid vertical surface i believe.

I absolutely support the idea of having a maximum allowable bounceback. However I think the rule needs to be better defined.


The testing is part of the arrow checking procedure. The distance is related to the minimum as if an arrow passes the shooter at check, shooting at a back, it can be re-shot. For those running an arrow check, I would hope this writing will make sense and give guidance where it is needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 12:18 pm 
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I still feel that 20' is still just an arbitrary number, having nothing to do with safety and more to do with simplicity in checking.

It's better than having no standard at all, however I feel that the level of risk associated with an arrow bouncing 19.9' off of a target hasn't been properly evaluated.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi-Circular Arrowheads.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2014 3:08 pm 
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Akroth wrote:
Regarding the proposed bounceback rule

(1) The distance should be based on some sort of average or actual statistic gathered from testing many arrows, or some sort of logical safety reason. 20' seems like an arbitrary number, its only advantage being that it's easy to remember because it matches up with the new proposed half-draw rule. Why was 20' chosen as a bounceback distance?


The 20' distance was proposed to go along with the proposed minimum full draw distance. A group of us agreed that any arrow readily returning to the archer during our current double-blind check, would be an unsafe arrow. This was not a number that was randomly grabbed from thin air.

Akroth wrote:
(2) The rule is unclear. Does it need to pass on both bows, or only one? This thread seems to clarify that it only needs to pass on one bow, however the wording on the rule is ambiguous.


The 2 bow wording is for the purpose of codifying our already double-blind checking technique. If it fails during two different tests (as we currently do hit check), then its not a passing arrow.

Akroth wrote:
(3) As previously mentioned, what are we shooting at? Testing against a wall will yield different results than testing against a shield. Testing on a skinny person will be different than on a larger person. Should clarify that testing should be done against a wall or solid vertical surface i believe.

I absolutely support the idea of having a maximum allowable bounceback. However I think the rule needs to be better defined.


As previously mentioned - this is just worded to match our current checking techniques.

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