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 Post subject: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:03 pm 
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So, I've been talking with a quite a few people lately and I think we've reached a point in the game where we need to seriously discuss this.

Quote:
3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 15 feet is required.


This is fine, but I've seen alot of people skirt the line of the 15 ft as well as watching alot of close friends and people I Don't fully know get hurt (being out of fighting for an hour to a full day) by arrows hitting them in the face.

I have a simple solution (I have others, but that would just be asking for a lynching at this point in time)

Quote:
3.8.2. Edited: A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 20 feet is required.


It's a simple fix. Requires archers to be further back to use full-draw, which would let the arrows slow down just abit more so the impact doesn't knock someone out.

The biggest reason I bring this up is safety. Not everyone can afford eye protection (nor should be required to wear). While i'd like to see more people wear eye-protection, there will be those that refuse to wear it for whatever reason (fogging lens, garb look, etc.) and we should bring that into account.


Does anyone have any questions or concerns about this or things they'd like to add?


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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:43 am 
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Bluff, we are already pushing for this after my arrow discussion as well. I would expect this to be brought up the next voting period (March).

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:34 am 
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I saw it being discussed after I posted this in the semi-circular post.

I ignored it for the being until par mentioned it to me last night, and then I Saw that the discussion turned to it half-way through the thread.

Made feel alittle sheepish, to be honest...


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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 11:43 am 
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Its still a good idea that deserves its own thread. And it should be done.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:51 pm 
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I am totally for this. I would also cite the rules from our brethren games:

Amtgard wrote:
The maximum limit for a bow’s pull is 35 pounds with a maximum 28-inch draw length. Crossbows are limited to no more than 450 inch-pounds. No compound bows are allowed. Broken or mended arrows are not to be used. All wooden arrows must be taped on the entire shaft. At close range (20 feet or less) bows must be no more than half drawn. Arrows from bows deal two points of damage to armor, which may be modified by class traits in games where classes are used. A weapon in hand that is hit by an arrow is destroyed. If a bow is hit by a weapon, it is destroyed.


Dagorhir wrote:
4.5.1.1 - Yellow weapons must be used at half-drawn (arrows) or thrown with half force (javelins) at ranges closer than 20 feet.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:52 pm 
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Eye protection is cheap.

For example:

http://www.discountsafetygear.com/eye-p ... asses.html

Also, I have never seen someone be knocked out from an arrow. I have seen people be knocked out by reds.

I know you want this rule to pass, but lets ease off the hyperbole, shall we?

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Cyric wrote:
Eye protection is cheap.

For example:

http://www.discountsafetygear.com/eye-p ... asses.html

Also, I have never seen someone be knocked out from an arrow. I have seen people be knocked out by reds.

I know you want this rule to pass, but lets ease off the hyperbole, shall we?



Thanks for the link for cheap eye-protection, but I find the 'hyperbole' statement alittle hurtful because you're calling what I've seen an exaggeration.

Yes, I've never seen someone knocked out completely by an arrow, but I've seen injuries/bruises and other such things because of them that have stopped fighters from fighting for a short time. I hope that we NEVER see someone getting completely knocked out by an arrow.. but I'm hoping to prevent these minor/moderate injuries.


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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:15 pm 
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Though arrow shafts, nocks, and fletchings do account for a fair number of injuries as far as surface tears and scratches go, impact injuries such as retinal bruising and tears do happen, and can have long lasting detrimental effects. Though eye protection is more effective at preventing these types of injuries, their use is not widespread, and not regulated. Requiring archers to half-draw at 5ft farther than is now required (and sloppily followed) would help to decrease the occurrence of such events, in theory, while not significantly impacting the way in which our game is played.

If there is evidence that the 20ft rule is effective in other sports (or, more so, that the incident of impact related eye injuries is less in those sports), then I think it would be wise to adopt this rule. (if it has been stated that the incident of eye injury in those sports is lesser, forgive me, I didn't see it). Additionally, we could also see a reduction in bounce-back distance in close-quarters-combat, such as in the space between lines, which would be addressing two issues with one BoW amendment.

Is there any way changing the rule (with proper evidence for doing so) could hurt playability? I understand that we don't want to be changing rules on a whim or just because "the other guys" are doing it, but if there's good reasoning and evidence for it, it sounds like a good idea.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:07 am 
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Thurat wrote:
If there is evidence that the 20ft rule is effective in other sports (or, more so, that the incident of impact related eye injuries is less in those sports), then I think it would be wise to adopt this rule. (if it has been stated that the incident of eye injury in those sports is lesser, forgive me, I didn't see it). Additionally, we could also see a reduction in bounce-back distance in close-quarters-combat, such as in the space between lines, which would be addressing two issues with one BoW amendment.


This statement is pretty much the complete thought I had on the subject.

1. We make our game slightly safer.
2. We make it easier to cross game.
3. bounce back is taken care of.

Whats to lose?

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:40 pm 
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Are we 100% positive that bounce back is taken care of? What if someone brings bouncier arrows? Then it's back to the same argument. It's definitely not solved, it's postponed. The practice tennis ball arrows bounce a lot I don't even know if 20 feet will fully make the bounce back a non-issue.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Glass wrote:
Are we 100% positive that bounce back is taken care of? What if someone brings bouncier arrows? Then it's back to the same argument. It's definitely not solved, it's postponed. The practice tennis ball arrows bounce a lot I don't even know if 20 feet will fully make the bounce back a non-issue.


Until we find the magic open-cell foam that delivers a good hit, is light, doesn't break down, and doesn't return from compression too quickly or figure out some form of nock design that is both safe and functional, I don't think we'll ever be able to completely eliminate the danger of bounce-back. What we are trying to do is mitigate that danger. In the semi-circular arrowhead thread, http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=41709, there is a rule addition for trying to quantify what is considered dangerous bounce-back.

With Plithut's suggestion, the rule reads:

1.4.8.11. Arrows may not have excessive bounceback which is defined as returning more than 20' when tested with at least two different 35# bows.

The intent is to do this in conjunction with testing at 20' and extending the half-draw requirement to 20' from 15'.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:43 pm 
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I am also a firm believer in the 20ft minimum... Maybe then I will get shot at 15ft full draw instead of 10 or 12ft...

Also I think we should add a weapon checking procedure of checking arrows at 10ft full draw for an extra layer of safety... This is how ive checked arrows for 14yrs and I've never had bad arrows come thru that I know of...
Archery is the most dangerous part of our game, asides from new kids playing Conan with my neck and a 6ft red.... But that's a whole nother beast

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:30 pm 
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Here's my problem with the bounce back rule: The target being shot makes all the difference. When an arrow bounces back during weapons check, it's all about where you hit the person on their back. Often times (pretty much exclusively) I see it when the target is shot right above the shoulder blade, where the angle of the back points upwards (I know that doesn't make a TON of sense) so that once the arrow impacts it's sent backwards and into the air.

The point is, I think that if you take any arrow, and shoot it in the same spot on the back with the same bow, the result is going to be the same.

A more extreme example would be to place a round shield at about a 30 degree angle to perpendicular to the ground (Ie, give it a little lean), especially an all foam round, and full draw into it at 20 feed, any arrow is going to go flying back. It's a soft flexible material meeting a soft flexible material. It's not dissipating the force into the target, but instead directing into kinetic energy pushing the arrow backwards. From the perspective of the target getting hit, that's fantastic. If we try to maximize the build the negate the bounceback, it will be by trying to have the target absorb as much of that energy as possible. That's not something to aspire to.

As for half draw, I think that there is currently a ton of archer hate currently due to a lack of following (And historic lack of policing) the half draw rule. I think the solution to that is better enforcement of the rule, not changing it. Also, heralds that are better capable of judging what 15' (or 20') would also be helpful, although I don't really have a solution to propose for that. Just like Par said, most people are shocked at how close 15' is, including heralds who try to reprimand you for not half drawing when you just shot someone from 18', I feel like those same people are going to start expecting me to half draw at 25' now, which is not helping either.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:10 am 
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Kyrian wrote:
The intent is to do this in conjunction with testing at 20' and extending the half-draw requirement to 20' from 15'.


Is there any feed back yet anywhere on the TBA play-testing?


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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:26 pm 
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Blackwolfe wrote:
Kyrian wrote:
The intent is to do this in conjunction with testing at 20' and extending the half-draw requirement to 20' from 15'.


Is there any feed back yet anywhere on the TBA play-testing?


I haven't heard anything but I will request feedback on the FB event page.

My personal feedback is that I had trouble adjusting to the longer distance. Over time, estimating 15' for half-draw has become such an integral part of how I do archery that I had to really make a point to remember not to full-draw at under 20'.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:32 am 
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Here is some of the feedback I have received so far:

Quote:
Forkbeard Rex: I think 20' is a good change.
I also think a bounce back rule could work, but it needs to be written just right with goode definitions of what the arrow is being bounced OFF.


Quote:
Carla De La Rosa: It was helpful and needed, especially to those who do not keep up with the boards. I didn't get to arch during the day, but it looked like it will take some time to adjust, but people were definitely more understanding when approached about watching their half draw distance.


Quote:
Maxwell T Colburn: As a tester the twenty feet rule was very nice as a few that would have certainly been a punch to the lower back ended up just a stiff poke at twenty. Only one on which my back was tested failed at the twenty, though mostly because those leading weapons check were worried about someone reverting to the fifteen foot rule (we tested all I was present for at the fifteen just to insure as it was being introduced no one fired an arrow at the old half draw distance that would/could injure). The one that failed at twenty obviously also failed at fifteen but that was the only one I am aware of.


Quote:
Allison Spite Winter: As a tester, the new 20 feet rule was an easy adjustment. As a fighter, it was tougher. As for the briefing, it was extremely helpful.


Quote:
Maxwell T Colburn: At the end of my comment I noted we tested all I was present for at the fifteen, but I also took some to the back at twenty as well just to see the impact difference. Well, and also because for some at first we mistook the twenty for the fifteen and had to re-test.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:55 pm 
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Oznog, wandering by because I just thought "hey I haven't been by Belegarth/Dag boards in a long time".

Going through a range of arrows, I got the following values for energy right-off-the-bow remaining at 20ft:

72.6%
76.8%
78.9%

There's no magic line at 15ft or 20ft here.


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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 9:39 am 
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Oznog, I trust your numbers on this subject, but could you explain to me how the force remaining on the bow translates to the arrow? Shouldn't the force-right-of-the-bow be the same because its at half draw, but the impact on the target lighter at greater distance?

Does that make sense?

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:34 am 
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He's not saying the energy right off the bow, but the energy right off the bow that still exists in the arrow after it passes 20 ft.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:40 pm 
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Big King Jimmy wrote:
He's not saying the energy right off the bow, but the energy right off the bow that still exists in the arrow after it passes 20 ft.


Yup. At 20ft the impact from a fulldraw is about 75% of being shot at a few feet away with the same fulldraw. Entirely due to aerodynamic drag loss.

That's from a really nice 35# bow at full. From lesser bows, the % loss is actually less. Drag goes up exponentially at higher speeds, with a 25# bow the drag isn't as high and it won't lose as much by 20ft.

So note that someone with a 25# bow fulldrawing at 5ft away is making the same impact as a 35# from 20ft away. FWIW. I can't tell you what to make of that, except that poring over absolute rules of 15ft vs 20ft when the bows could be radically different, and "half draw" doesn't have a really well-understood meaning.

Drawing to 22.5" gets you half power, but more logically you're looking for the sort of impact from a fulldraw 35# bow at a 20ft as the standard. In which case drawing your 28" bow to 25.5" gets you the same sort of impact close-up.


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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:03 pm 
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Okay, I understand now what you are saying, thank you for clearing that up for me.

As a reference, if you don't mind, whats the measure at 15'?

I ask only to better understand when we start to get a significant drop in energy. While this is going to be different from bow to bow, as well as on arrow to arrow, I'd like to start to come up with a baseline for all of this and post it.

The more data we have, the better the rules can be written.

Thanks Oznog.

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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:04 am 
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At 15'?? Just a bit more than at 20'. A hair over 80%.

There's no point where it just "drops off". It loses less energy per ft as it slows down- less drag at lower speeds. Even at max range where it can't possibly shoot further, it doesn't come to a stop. Still has a fair % of impact energy left, actually.


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 Post subject: Re: 3.8.2. Half Draw rule.
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:04 am 
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Thank you oh Arrow Wizard.

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