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 Post subject: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2014 8:07 pm 
Ninja
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Since we are talking about arrow checking in other places I thought I would bring this up and see how folks feel. I would like to see a half draw mark on arrow shafts. Just something so that when an archer is being charged they have an easy reference for draw length. This could also be useful for marshals when reminding people about half drawing under 20 (since so many people seem to still use 15).

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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 10:15 pm 
Grunt
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"Half draw" is dependent on the bow and the archer. Not a mark at 14". Myself using a horse bow will have a different half draw then if I'm using a long bow vs. my standard recurve. In addition having a quick talk before battle with a demonstration of what 20' looks like would be a continued help. Work the culture, not legislation.

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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:57 am 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
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I think an arrow drawn to 14" would go about 14" when loosed. I would like to see an actual study done to come up with something better. Here's my proposal:

(1) Get some values for "muzzle velocity" from a bunch of different bows at full draw.
(2) Extrapolate from that the energy imparted to the arrow using 1/2mv^2.
(3) Figure out what the average energy at launch is, and halve that number (half-draw).
(3) Reverse the math, and figure out what that velocity should be based on 1/2mv^2.
(4) do some more tests to figure out what the actual average draw length should be. Probably it will be something like 20-22".
(5) do some real-world tests of this new proposed "half-draw" length using a variety of bows and arrows to make sure this actually feels pretty safe to be shot in the head at 15'.
(6) Legislate "half-draw" as whatever that draw-length is.
(7) Require arrows to be marked at "half-draw".

The equipment needed to do this would be a good radar gun. If we can't find one of those, I can use calculus to figure out how much energy is being put into a bow by measuring draw weight in, say, 5# increments and measuring the length that is being drawn by that weight. I prefer real-world values because it would not be an approximation, but actual hard data. But I am confident the theoretical method would produce a decent value as well.

This is how good legislation is done that respects the game and it's participants. Anything less than this is * in the wind.

Note: "Half-draw" was just a number pulled out of their butts when archery was brought into the game. We may find 60% to be safe. Or even 75%. Or maybe we need to go down to 33%. Either way we can test this, using volunteers from across the country, and finally come up with an objective measure that is much better than current subjective, unenforceable one.


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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:09 am 
Ninja
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Working the culture hasn't worked. I have seen more problems with archers this year than I did in my first 5. I would have agreed with you at one point, but archery is no longer a veterans game, I have seen at least 5 inexperienced archers at every event I have gone to this year. An archer should be able to mark their arrows for their bow, yes it isn't going to be the same for every bow, but it will give them some kind of reminder. I think that all to often an archer is being charged and will pull to the draw stop without thinking.

There has to be a calculation out there somewhere for equivalent poundage at different draw lengths.

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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:18 am 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
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You can't mark the arrows for a given bow for the same reason you can't check weapons based on who is swinging them. Anyone can pick up anyone else's weapons, and any archer can fire anyone else's arrows.

There is a practical limit to how much energy a 35# recurve bow can impart to a projectile, and it varies directly with the square of the draw length. Some bows are a little better than others, which is why we need to test multiple bow/arrow combos to find a value that matches the real-world performance in the field, and legislate that value.


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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:20 pm 
Ninja
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You are right that arrows will get picked up by other people but having any rough marking, I don't even care how accurate it is, to give a visual reminder to half draw would reduce the frequency of people full drawing under 20 ft.

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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:02 pm 
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I think both of these things are great points (From Gorlock and Brutus):

1) Figure out an accurate half draw based on your bow, mark accordingly to remind yourself.
2) Have realms and events gently spread this custom to encourage archers to mind their distances.

With regards to a hard rule - the differences between all bows make it somewhat impossible. But the reminders for your own quiver might help train people in the right direction. It seems to be a good enough training tool.

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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:10 pm 
Grunt
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Sir Anastasia wrote:
I think both of these things are great points (From Gorlock and Brutus):

1) Figure out an accurate half draw based on your bow, mark accordingly to remind yourself.
2) Have realms and events gently spread this custom to encourage archers to mind their distances.

With regards to a hard rule - the differences between all bows make it somewhat impossible. But the reminders for your own quiver might help train people in the right direction. It seems to be a good enough training tool.


I can get behind this. I'll have mine marked at BftR.

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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:59 am 
Hero
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No reusable missiles would solve the issue for half draw for an individual bow. It would also extend the life of arrows and keep people from going on to the field with only a bow in order to scavenge arrows from someone else.

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 Post subject: Re: Arrow half draw markers
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:45 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
There is a practical limit to how much energy a 35# recurve bow can impart to a projectile, and it varies directly with the square of the draw length. Some bows are a little better than others, which is why we need to test multiple bow/arrow combos to find a value that matches the real-world performance in the field, and legislate that value.


I know, for a fact, that Lady Grey's Bow, Juicer's Bow, and a couple others with little to no distance between string and rest impart greater force than many of the "standard 35# recurves."

There are other factors that go into the force such as how much materials that the bow was made with. Fiberglass, Epoxy, Wood, etc. Also, any measurement that reads "35# * 28" is +/- 2 lbs in all truth. It isn't 35# exactly.

Angmarth wrote:
No reusable missiles would solve the issue for half draw for an individual bow. It would also extend the life of arrows and keep people from going on to the field with only a bow in order to scavenge arrows from someone else.


This will increase the amount of individual arrows at check, but I am on board for it. I am a bigger fan of the way that Ragnarok has gone about dealing with archery. No archer can walk on the field with less than 3 arrows. Also, my arrows don't break from being refired. They break because people step on them in melee, so extended life? Maybe.

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