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 Post subject: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:31 pm 
Toadie
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It came up during a Kingdoms battle and was an actual issue. Should pool queing greens count as a double green? After asking other heralds I made the call to say that it doesn't count and was confronted by some with the "but the rules say..." Technically the rules do say that two hands must be on the weapon, but when one hand is offering no force to change it why would it be considered something that now goes through armor?

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:48 pm 
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You made the wrong call. Two hands on it as long as one of the hands doesn't leave the weapon means that it is a "double green," or that it is wielded two handed. If there is sufficient force for a hit there, then it is a hit.

The rule doesn't say anything about the percentage of force delivered by each hand, just that it is wielded by two hands.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:36 pm 
Toadie
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This was the other thing that was brought up, there seems to be a discrepancy between the east and the west when it comes to this. The people I asked were in agreement with the idea that pool queing is not considered a double green, who like yourself, have been in the sport for 10+ years.

My concern is why are we allowing a shot that is only being guided, not increased in "strength" (if we want to at least try to keep some realism element), to penetrate armor? Should it not be "a firm grasp with both hands on the weapon during full thrust"? With the way it's set up, you could keep your pinky finger on the weapon the whole way and it would count as double, which just sounds retarded. It seems more like rules lawyering over what little realism we have left.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 11:46 pm 
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I think with regards to realism, stabs are more likely to go through real armor than slashing hits. I think playability is a huge concern with your interpretation: How do you determine the force a person is applying from each hand to conclude one hand is slacking? If you feel sufficient force and someone yells "two," you need to take that hit.

If a person can pool cue in a hit with sufficient force, then it is a hit and two hands are on it. Why should a different amount of force be needed beyond sufficient? If a person weighs 90 lbs and does sufficient force isn't that enough? Obviously a person who weighs more could deliver a better shot with proper mechanics. Should we only take the shot from the larger person? How do you tell if a hand is contributing enough to a two-handed stab? or any two-handed shot? How do you tell "how much hand" someone has on a weapon?

Our rules don't have a mechanism for that... what we have is that when two-hands are on it and you yell "two," it is a two-handed shot. I can determine whether a hit is sufficient for me to take it, but there isn't a mechanism for me to determine that a hand isn't doing enough work... nor is there any mention of it in the rules at all.

I can tell you as an old timer from the midwest and a current west fighter that once upon a time we even symbolically place a second hand on class I/III (blue/green) swords to stab with them for the "double green." This was always accepted as "two handed," and was specifically explained to be both a "symbolic hand" AND something that went through armor.

Deciding "how much hand" is present is a terrible way to get around the fact that you didn't block a hit that had sufficient force. Armor shouldn't negate all hits...you already get to be stabbed one handed with no consequence... I feel this is a supremely cheesy interpretation.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:20 am 
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I would not say you are wrong in your interpretation of the rule, Jester. I was taught the same when learning spear here in IL, and I feel it is justified to declare that if two hands are not actually holding the spear, then it is not actually double green. To me, pool-cueing is no different than if you were to rest the spear on your forearm and slide it forward. The second hand lends nothing more than a rest and a guide, and is not contributing to the actual strike of the weapon.

This may be a regional difference.

In regards to the semantics over how much force each is contributing to the strike, I think that is over complicating it. If both hands are actually grasping the weapon in some way (not just sliding over), then that's a double green. Though I disagree with her interpretation of the rule, what Ana said is spot on: force is too dependent on too many factors to be used in our sport beyond if it was good enough for the opponent to take it or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:27 pm 
Toadie
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Alright, not arguing acceptable force here. We've all taken single greens that had more force than doubles, this isn't the issue. Neither is the broad spectrum of realism being questioned, just this one thing.

The issue is we are allowing a broad interpretation of the rules to bend us into unrealistic game play, such as placing your pinky on the pommel and calling it a double. As I mentioned before, should we include what constitutes as "two hands on the weapon"? Making an O with your thumb and index finger and letting it slide through, is that what constitutes as having a hand on the weapon? Should the palm have to touch? As Thurat said, there is no difference between pool cueing and resting the spear on another body part or hell, using someone elses.

I'm not questioning a rule or my call, I'm questioning it's vague writing. I brought it up in "rules discussion and development" and not "rules questions" for a reason.

But if this is a regional difference, then this a moot subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:10 am 
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The real issue here is that the way the rules are written does not reflect either the intent of the rule (both hands should be contributing to the stab) or the way the rule is played in some regions. The wording of the rule should be updated to clarify that both hands must be contributing to forward motion of the stab in order to count as double green.


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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:48 am 
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My question is how do you know that both hands weren't being used to generate force? A lot of times when I and stabbing with 2 hands I start with one high on the spear, let it slide down as I start the stab, and grip for more power behind the stab shortly before contact. It looks pretty much the same as if I didn't grip with my high hand, and when I am stabbing people they aren't watching my hands nearly closely enough to tell the difference.

Honestly if I were being stabbed at I would prefer that guiding hand, especially from people who aren't top tier with a spear. A lot of newer spear users have a wide enough grip on 2 handed stabs that if their forward hand doesn't slide they are going to scoop the shot up at the last minute while extending and stab you in the face or throat... with more force. It is safer for you if the pool cue.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:21 am 
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Ahem.

This rule ISN'T open for interpretation. There is no questionable wording. If both hands are on the spear it's double green. End of story. The real problem is that some realms are choosing to play in ways NOT outlined by the book of war. The reason we have the rules is so that areas DON'T develop things like this. Your marshals need to be enforcing the rules AS WRITTEN not as they think they should be.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:28 pm 
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So I can build a sca style slide and ruin people in armor?

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 1:31 pm 
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As for the rules, a lot of rules have magically disappeared over the years through various versions of the book of war. Defending them as Holy Writ isn't really possible if they keep changing without being voted on.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:13 pm 
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Do we really want to start playing the "as written" game again Par? I still have a list of things I could discuss "as written". There's an honest debate on what the rule means. It is a regional difference. Perhaps it should be clarified? I think we went over this last time, with respect to "declaring" rules....its not like this thing is the Bible, Torah, or Qur'an.


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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 3:30 pm 
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It says pretty clearly that wielded with two hands means 2 hits. It doesn't say thrusting with 2 hands as others had pointed out on FB. It says wielded. Wielded means "to use."

With regards to history/precedent - it seems there are pre-split people on both sides who have played both ways. There is no help there.

We could rewrite it to clarify it for the majority, but that wording would be identical to what is written currently:
3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to an unarmored Target Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring anrmor the Target Area may have. If the Target Area is armored, the Weapon must be wielded two-handed to cause damage to the Target Area. A one-handed strike causes no injury to an Armored Target Area.

We could rewrite to add "forcibly with both hands" or "thrust with both hands," to clarify it, but that would need to come to a vote. Once we bring it to a vote - we can see how everyone is actually playing it, based on majority rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:49 pm 
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This
Sir Par wrote:
This rule ISN'T open for interpretation. There is no questionable wording. If both hands are on the spear it's double green. End of story. The real problem is that some realms are choosing to play in ways NOT outlined by the book of war. The reason we have the rules is so that areas DON'T develop things like this. Your marshals need to be enforcing the rules AS WRITTEN not as they think they should be.


In combination with this

Cyric wrote:
As for the rules, a lot of rules have magically disappeared over the years through various versions of the book of war. Defending them as Holy Writ isn't really possible if they keep changing without being voted on.


Has lead to this

Brutus wrote:
The real issue here is that the way the rules are written does not reflect either the intent of the rule...or the way the rule is played in some regions.


I hate to agree to a rewrite. But it is getting to be about time.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 8:11 pm 
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***This.*** ***All of this.***
I'm glad someone got here to say it before me b/c I was about to loose my mind.

Thanks, Sir Anastasia, for letting me keep my mind. ;-)

Sir Anastasia wrote:
I think with regards to realism, stabs are more likely to go through real armor than slashing hits. I think playability is a huge concern with your interpretation: How do you determine the force a person is applying from each hand to conclude one hand is slacking? If you feel sufficient force and someone yells "two," you need to take that hit.

If a person can pool cue in a hit with sufficient force, then it is a hit and two hands are on it. Why should a different amount of force be needed beyond sufficient? If a person weighs 90 lbs and does sufficient force isn't that enough? Obviously a person who weighs more could deliver a better shot with proper mechanics. Should we only take the shot from the larger person? How do you tell if a hand is contributing enough to a two-handed stab? or any two-handed shot? How do you tell "how much hand" someone has on a weapon?

Our rules don't have a mechanism for that... what we have is that when two-hands are on it and you yell "two," it is a two-handed shot. I can determine whether a hit is sufficient for me to take it, but there isn't a mechanism for me to determine that a hand isn't doing enough work... nor is there any mention of it in the rules at all.

I can tell you as an old timer from the midwest and a current west fighter that once upon a time we even symbolically place a second hand on class I/III (blue/green) swords to stab with them for the "double green." This was always accepted as "two handed," and was specifically explained to be both a "symbolic hand" AND something that went through armor.

Deciding "how much hand" is present is a terrible way to get around the fact that you didn't block a hit that had sufficient force. Armor shouldn't negate all hits...you already get to be stabbed one handed with no consequence... I feel this is a supremely cheesy interpretation.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2014 7:52 pm 
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sooo,
sorry it took me a couple days to catch up with this but...
I bought this issue up 7 years ago and no one moved forward with trying to change it. so i always assumed that pool cueing was accepted.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22126

As far as i can tell a lot of the arguments against it are silly. The idea of an SCA style slide means your hand is on the slide not the weapon. saying it counts as the weapon would be like saying i can swing my weapon by the lanyard cause its part of the weapon.... Its not.
Saying that it makes spears OP against armor is also silly. Its the same as the people that try to machine gun min red shots. If its a crap shot don't take it. ( i know this mentality goes wayyy to far some times.. thats not what we are talking about. ) if people start poking as fast as possible then the shot will be no good.
and speaking of reds.. a lot of red sword users use the "ax" method sometimes to swing at shields. the idea being that you start with one hand high on the handle and slide it down as you swing to generate force. should that not be red cause their hand moved?

i know i'm rehashing a bit but this all seems silly. like i said, i asked about this 7 years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:40 am 
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Whether or not "pool cueing" is technically "legal" or "illegal" according to the BoW is irrelevant. If your group decides to allow or disallow it is the only true question. If you are playing by the BoW to the letter, then the final call of whether or not something was good enough or legal is ultimately in the eyes of the marshall/herald/referee and the person who is being struck.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 2:12 pm 
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But the person getting struck doesn't get too decide how many hands were used to swing. They get to decide if it hit hard enough, and if they will take it at all. They don't get to down grade from double to single. Just like the person getting hit does not get to decide if a hit was late or not, the person swinging makes that determination.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:04 am 
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I believe that is incorrect. The person being struck may ASK if you had 2 hands on it, or they may ASK you if felt your swing was late... but ultimately they make the decision. No where in the BoW does it say the person STRIKING has any say in how combat is resolved. It may be assumed, but unless you are shooting a bow you don't have any real say in the matter.

Ex: You can swing or stab at me, say you had 2 hands on it, and I can disagree with you and will be RIGHT. Most people are honest or will ask for clarification, but they don't have to listen to you if they don't wish to. See my point?

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:37 am 
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You decide if the hit was good or not on your side, but the person swinging says how many hands were on something. I have never seen someone argue that a red hit wasn't a red hit because the person swinging was wrong about the number of hands on it, plenty say it wasn't hard enough. If I say I stabbed you with 2 hands, you get to say light, glancing, or take it. You don't get to say, "I'm only taking that as a single green to my armor because I think that is what it was". A person can certainly ask for clarification, but if the person swinging the weapon says a shot was in motion, and the person who got hit thinks it was hard enough (they do or they wouldn't be asking for clarification), then it is on the person asking clarification to take that hit.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:23 am 
Hero
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That might be the culture, but it is assuredly not written in the rules that way. My point is that, if I clearly see (or think I see) you remove a hand from a weapon I can ignore it as a 2 handed strike. Your opinion doesn't matter if you are the one swinging the weapon. Your only recourse, regardless of how absurd it sounds, is to take it up with a herald and get me watched. This isn't the culture, but it is how the rules work. This is similar to the calling of "point" by people throwing javelins. Just because you say it happened, doesn't mean I have to believe you or even acknowledge your point of view.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:17 am 
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Quote:
3.7.2. Combatants attacking an opponent from behind with a two-handed strike from a Class 2 or 3 Weapon MUST shout "TWO". This informs the opponent that the attack was a two-handed strike, and caused two points of Injury. If "TWO" is not called, the opponent should consider a successful strike to cause a single hit of Injury.


I'm pretty sure that 3.7.2 says the attacker is the one that tells the person being hit how many hands were used for the hit. Then it is up to the person hit (or not hit) to decide to take the strike or not. You don't get to downgrade the shot if 'two' or 'double' is called, though you can ignore the hit all together.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:05 pm 
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While I must commend you on your debate tactics, it is clearly intended to only be used WHEN YOU CAN'T SEE the person swinging. Since it says, "Combatants attacking an opponent from behind..." I understand where you are coming from Gorlock, I just think you are reading something into the rules that is a largely accepted practice vs. an actual interpretation of what is written.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:39 pm 
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I probably am reading more in than is there. But we also call double from the front, because we don't know what someone can or can't see at any given moment. in the middle of a fight I'm paying attention to the two-four shield guys, the archer, and the pole I am fighting. There is to much to focus on to actually focus on the poles hand placement all the time. If they say they used 2 hands I'm going to trust them, even if I only see 1 hand on the stick. I would rather assume that the person with the pole is being honest, just like I would rather assume that I didn't get a solid hit on someone when they don't take something than think they are cheating.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:28 pm 
Hero
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That is the only point I am trying to make. Even though it isn't required, we rely on that honesty rather than a hard fast rule about who calls what. What does that have to do with pool cueing? It brings me back to this: 2 hands on the weapon (unless it is specifically spelled out) is going to mean something different to different people. Marshall/Herald/Striker/Strikee may all make the call differently depending on what they feel is a good 2 handed strike. If someone is REALLY campaigning for or against the pool cue shot, then they should just outright state "We should made X strike illegal/legal defined in the context of the ruleset" rather than beat around the bush. Anything less than that leaves it up for interpretation and only the herald and the strikee have the authority to declare it one way or the other.

By the way, anyone reading this should look upon the civil manner in which Gorlock and I have both made our points without getting into name calling and invoking Godwin's Law. He is however, dirty horde scum. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:37 pm 
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I straight won't take a red-shot to a shield, hard enough or not, if the attacker doesn't say 'RED' or 'TWO'. I tell them that too: "You've gotta say it for it to count."

I don't think Gorlock is reading too much into anything. That rule is about play-ability, plain and simple.

But then, I take the lightest and most glancing spear shots... mostly because I don't like getting posted up by my balls.

Edit: Oh, and **** you Angmarth, you Nazi housewife.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 5:31 pm 
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eeach wrote:
I straight won't take a red-shot to a shield, hard enough or not, if the attacker doesn't say 'RED' or 'TWO'. I tell them that too: "You've gotta say it for it to count."

That is straight up cheating.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 9:43 pm 
Brute
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Caleidah wrote:
eeach wrote:
I straight won't take a red-shot to a shield, hard enough or not, if the attacker doesn't say 'RED' or 'TWO'. I tell them that too: "You've gotta say it for it to count."

That is straight up cheating.


The Book of War wrote:
3.7.2. Combatants attacking an opponent from behind with a two-handed strike from a Class 2 or 3 Weapon MUST shout “TWO”. This informs the opponent that the attack was a two-handed strike, and caused two points of Injury. If “TWO” is not called, the opponent should consider a successful strike to cause a single hit of Injury.


Seems pretty clear to me. Unless we're arguing, now, that following the BoW, as written, is cheating.

http://geddon.org/Book_of_war#3.7._Melee_Conventions

Another fact many don't realize about the rules, Neck is NOT head:

The Book of War wrote:
3.1.1. Body – Area bounded by the base of neck (***inclusive***), shoulder-arm joint (inclusive), hip-leg socket (inclusive), groin, and buttocks (inclusive).
[...]
3.1.4. Head – Area above the base of neck (***exclusive***).


It's amazing what you learn when you actually read the rules of the games you play.

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Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
Horde marched to the field. Their leaders up in the air, adorned in furs and animal skulls. Women from camps chained underneath the platforms, fire-breathers & flag bearers ran about before of the procession. I have never in my life felt closer to being in a fantasy world. I will always remember that for a moment I thought so many things were possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:00 pm 
Brute
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I think you need to pay closer attention to ideas already presented in this thread. Especially if you are going to try and rules lawyer.
The Book of War wrote:
3.7.2. Combatants attacking an opponent from behind with a two-handed strike from a Class 2 or 3 Weapon MUST shout “TWO”. This informs the opponent that the attack was a two-handed strike, and caused two points of Injury. If “TWO” is not called, the opponent should consider a successful strike to cause a single hit of Injury.

"From behind" is the relevant clause, If I'm in your rear third, only then am I obligated to call it.


The Book of War wrote:
3.1.1. Body – Area bounded by the base of neck (inclusive), shoulder-arm joint (inclusive), hip-leg socket (inclusive), groin, and buttocks (inclusive).
[...]
3.1.4. Head – Area above the base of neck (***exclusive***).

This one has a little more grey area. Bounded by the base of the neck is as important as inclusive, though. Which means the body includes the base of the neck, but not the extent of the neck.

Go look at yourself in the mirror. In practice, the base of the neck is the clavicle and trapezius.

Basically, the way to understand it is this:
If you are calling neck when people are hitting you in the trapezius, you are cheating. the traps are a tough, bulky muscle that doesn't need extra protection.
when people stab you in the throat, it is neck;
When people hit you on the neck vertabrae, with a wrap or whatever, it is neck.

The collarbone varies, because it is easily broken, and much of it awfully close to the face when not underneath it. Also tip-only slot shots are often a graze, light, partial block or a partial face hit. More often than they have sufficient force. Non-tip shots and shots closer to the shoulder are likely to get a good chunk of the deltoid, traps, or the pectoral muscle with their helping of collarbone.

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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:58 am 
Forum Gordon Ramsay
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I think eeach has provided us with a perfect example of the issue at hand, that regional/experience differences in rule sets tend to be an issue.
I had a guy tell me to my face that he wasn't going to take my red shots because I wasn't saying "red" but instead was saying "two." two CW ago. After I killed him I stepped off the field and asked a herald to approach the fighter and let him know. The herald had no idea that the wording is for two, rather than red.

While I like how the BoW is left open to some interpretation, I believe to alleviate rules lawyering and arguments, it seems that trying to get leaders in the community on the same page needs to be addressed.

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Overall I believe the article was positive for our image, loosely defining us as a sadomasochist anti-larp. I'm ok with that. http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/LARP-harder

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But, his sensei passed that style down to him! Literal hours of tradition!


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 Post subject: Re: Pool que double greens.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:42 pm 
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I think we should do this with video tutorials on the new website. If we have to vote the tutorials up to the new website for the national clarification, then so be it. This should never mean a realm is obligated to do things the "national" way. Our bylaws specifically allow realms to have house rules, but it does set the standard for inter-realm play. I am always an advocate for letting people do what suits them and their groups, but I also see great value on getting people on the same page - and if that means I have to change the way I do things in my realm because I want us to uphold the national standard for combat rules - then that is the choice that I can make when I have these tutorials to inform me.

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