It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:29 am


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 4:16 pm 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 87
Started Fighting: 19 Apr 2009
Realm: Thunder Guard
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board, spear
Quote:
3.5.4.1. A Shield Bash is defined as using a Shield to strike an opponent from a distance further than two steps away.
3.5.4.2. A Shield Check is defined as using a Shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance less than two steps away.
3.5.4.3. A person may not Bash, Check or Shield Kick an opponent’s rear quadrant. Shield pushing or incidental contact in an opponent’s rear quadrant is allowed.
3.5.4.4. Shield Kicking of small Shields and/or Bucklers is discouraged.
3.5.4.5. The head may not be the intentional target of any shield maneuver.


I would like to propose the following addition:
Quote:
3.5.4.6. A person may not Bash an opponent with a disabled leg.


I've received and delivered some crappy shield bashes with legged opponents. Shields to faces are the biggest problem (Now disallowed), but being knocked clean over, hitting heads on the ground, being stepped on or other incidental body contact are all problems.

I feel that the potential for injury is significantly higher in comparison to doing the same to a non-legged opponent - An opponent without a disabled leg can easily dodge or move to reduce the impact of the bash, as well as being in a better position to stabilise themselves or catch themselves before hitting the ground. A legged opponent has very little they can do in terms of evading the shield bash or stabilising themselves after contact.

A shield check can often achieve the same result in combat as the shield bash, while presenting significantly less danger to the legged opponent.

(Note: At this time this is not yet a motion, just a thread to promote further discussion)

_________________
Ranting about the BoW so you don't have to.
(More rants here: http://board.belegarth.com/viewforum.php?f=66)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:42 pm 
Slayer
Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Posts: 1000
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Kingdom of Knightfall
Favorite Fighting Styles: Red Sword - S&B - Florentine
I'm in favor of it.

_________________
"It is a brave act of valour to contemn death; but where life is more terrible than death, it is then the truest valour to dare to live."


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:05 pm 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Alton, IL
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1999
Realm: Riverbend
Unit: Henneth-Annun
Bashing legged opponents is dangerous. It's too easy to trip and fall on top of the target, and all your weight gets transferred straight down onto ankles that can't possibly support them.

I'm all for pushing over legged opponents, as long as you don't fall on top of them (and don't make shield contact with the head) but as an avid basher myself, bashing legged opponents _should_ be illegal!


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:10 am 
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
Posts: 5587
Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip
I have no problem with bashing legged people ORshield contact to the face.
This game is getting soft and it makes me sad.

_________________
Warlord of the Western Uruk-Hai

Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
Rockin my peers and puttin suckas in fear


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:50 pm 
Recruit
Recruit

Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:00 pm
Posts: 17
Started Fighting: 0- 8-2006
Realm: Knightfall
Favorite Fighting Styles: S&B, Min Red, Glaive
Are there any verifiable cases of people being actually hurt by this?


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:26 pm 
Monkey
Monkey
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 3:06 pm
Posts: 178
Location: Kimberly, Idaho
Started Fighting: 03 Mar 2005
Realm: Alvara
Unit: Brotherhood of the Falcon
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board, Archery
I had my leg broken at T-wald in 2014 because of this.

_________________
"We are raising a new and dangerous variety of squirrels."


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:34 pm 
Gladiator
Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:31 pm
Posts: 981
Kaladin wrote:
Are there any verifiable cases of people being actually hurt by this?


Can't think of their name, but I recall four or so years ago, someone having their hip shattered when someone did this to them. Took them out of fighting for around two years as I recall.

That being said, I don't really see it as being something more unsafe than anything else. I'm open to be convinced otherwise, but accidents happen and if someone is being unsafe, that's different than legislating the potential for being unsafe away.

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 8:43 pm 
Mercenary
Mercenary

Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:01 pm
Posts: 622
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Loderia
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board
A fighter in Loderia snapped her ankle when bashed over but another fighter.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:53 pm 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Alton, IL
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1999
Realm: Riverbend
Unit: Henneth-Annun
I blew out Maximian's knee in Riverbend doing this over 10 years ago. He was a big guy, so not a case of small-vs-little or even a hard bash. It's just a vulnerable position. Riverbend changed it's rules regarding this after that.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 9:55 pm 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Alton, IL
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1999
Realm: Riverbend
Unit: Henneth-Annun
Reverend wrote:
I'm open to be convinced otherwise,


War Council (and really humans in general) need more of this attitude. Kudos.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:26 pm 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 87
Started Fighting: 19 Apr 2009
Realm: Thunder Guard
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board, spear
This really should have been under rules discussion and development. If admin can move it that would be super.

_________________
Ranting about the BoW so you don't have to.
(More rants here: http://board.belegarth.com/viewforum.php?f=66)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:43 pm 
Become One With the Wind
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 4:20 pm
Posts: 5851
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Started Fighting: 01 Apr 2001
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Hellhammer
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword & Board
Tada!

_________________
- Derian -

"An octopus has eight arms, three hearts, five *, two Super Bowl rings, a beak, and the power to solve crimes."


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:23 am 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 87
Started Fighting: 19 Apr 2009
Realm: Thunder Guard
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board, spear
Reverend wrote:
Other than the fact that /sometimes/ people get hurt, what is the thought process behind this?

That is the thought process - The likelihood of an injury resulting from a running/sprinting shield bash to a legged opponent is significantly greater than the likelihood of injury from the same maneuver to a non-legged opponent.

Horati OTFH wrote:
Running from across the fighting field to level a guy is not acceptable.

The intent of the rule change was to address this issue.
Not to disallow safe shield contact to a legged opponent.

Reverend wrote:
How are you going to differentiate/legislate/enforce between someone walking with purpose over to a legged fighter from three or more steps away and pushing them over (technically a violation of this proposed rule as written) and someone that only checks someone into the ground?

Book of War wrote:
3.5.4.1. A Shield Bash is defined as using a Shield to strike an opponent from a distance further than two steps away.
3.5.4.2. A Shield Check is defined as using a Shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance less than two steps away.


My interpretation has always been that this refers to the number of steps of acceleration - Can you reach that speed in 2 steps or less? If yes, it's a check. If no, it's a bash. The rules aren't worded that way, but I believe that most people differentiate between a bash and a check based upon speed/force, rather than the actual number of steps.

If you walk from one end of the field to the other without stopping and then make shield contact, most people would not call it a bash despite the fact that it was more than 3 steps.

This could be changed in the future to better match how most people actually view the rules.

_________________
Ranting about the BoW so you don't have to.
(More rants here: http://board.belegarth.com/viewforum.php?f=66)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:54 am 
Hero
Hero
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 1528
Location: Arcadia, CA
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1991
Realm: Andor
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and board
florentine
archery
As a point of reference, Dagorhir does not allow bashing of legged opponents:

Quote:
4.8.3 - Players may shield bash an opponent on their front or side. Bashing an opponent from the rear is prohibited. Bashing an opponent who has lost a leg is prohibited.

4.8.4 - Players may shield check an opponent from any direction. Players may shield check opponents who have lost a leg.

_________________
"...change requires action, it doesn't just happen. Define your actions by how you think the game should be, not how the game is. The game will follow."--Big Jimmy


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:08 am 
Gladiator
Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:31 pm
Posts: 981
Akroth wrote:
Reverend wrote:
Other than the fact that /sometimes/ people get hurt, what is the thought process behind this?

That is the thought process - The likelihood of an injury resulting from a running/sprinting shield bash to a legged opponent is significantly greater than the likelihood of injury from the same maneuver to a non-legged opponent.


So, you're not actually concerned with bashing of legged opponents, but from unsafe behavior against legged opponents.

Akroth wrote:
Horati OTFH wrote:
Running from across the fighting field to level a guy is not acceptable.

The intent of the rule change was to address this issue.
Not to disallow safe shield contact to a legged opponent.


But, that's what your proposed rule does.

Akroth wrote:
Reverend wrote:
How are you going to differentiate/legislate/enforce between someone walking with purpose over to a legged fighter from three or more steps away and pushing them over (technically a violation of this proposed rule as written) and someone that only checks someone into the ground?

Book of War wrote:
3.5.4.1. A Shield Bash is defined as using a Shield to strike an opponent from a distance further than two steps away.
3.5.4.2. A Shield Check is defined as using a Shield to strike an opponent starting from a distance less than two steps away.


My interpretation has always been that this refers to the number of steps of acceleration - Can you reach that speed in 2 steps or less? If yes, it's a check. If no, it's a bash. The rules aren't worded that way, but I believe that most people differentiate between a bash and a check based upon speed/force, rather than the actual number of steps.

If you walk from one end of the field to the other without stopping and then make shield contact, most people would not call it a bash despite the fact that it was more than 3 steps.


But, that's not what the rules say. Your proposed rule is chopping down a forest because there's a couple of trees that are dead.

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:21 pm 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 87
Started Fighting: 19 Apr 2009
Realm: Thunder Guard
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board, spear
Reverend wrote:
But, that's not what the rules say. Your proposed rule is chopping down a forest because there's a couple of trees that are dead.


I feel like the difference between a check and bash is poorly defined in the BoW, but that it is fairly well understood by the average player.

In concept (wording aside) do you feel that making shield contact with a legged opponent while you are running/sprinting at a high speed is dangerous?

If yes, that's what I'm aiming to address here. Nothing else. If you feel that there's a better way to word this, or that other parts of the BoW should be updated to make this more concise, I'm open to suggestions :)

_________________
Ranting about the BoW so you don't have to.
(More rants here: http://board.belegarth.com/viewforum.php?f=66)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:37 pm 
Gladiator
Gladiator
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:31 pm
Posts: 981
Akroth wrote:
Reverend wrote:
But, that's not what the rules say. Your proposed rule is chopping down a forest because there's a couple of trees that are dead.


I feel like the difference between a check and bash is poorly defined in the BoW, but that it is fairly well understood by the average player.


Definitely agreed, however, the rules don't specify an amount of acceleration or speed.

Akroth wrote:
In concept (wording aside) do you feel that making shield contact with a legged opponent while you are running/sprinting at a high speed is dangerous?


No, I think making unsafe shield contact with a legged opponent while running/sprinting at high speed is what is dangerous. Given how many hundreds of high-speed bashes take place in this sport, a mere handful of injuries/accidents doesn't shout out to me "we need to ban this" it says "unsafe behavior is unsafe and should be handled on a case-by-case basis".

Akroth wrote:
If yes, that's what I'm aiming to address here. Nothing else. If you feel that there's a better way to word this, or that other parts of the BoW should be updated to make this more concise, I'm open to suggestions :)


Well, the entire BoW is being updated/reworded as we speak... :P

I feel like my default stance in this situation is that there is a difference between bashing a legged opponent and bashing a legged opponent in an unsafe manner. Getting rid of a legitimate tactic in the sport because some people use it unsafely seems to be ... unwise.

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:39 am 
Ninja
Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 8:58 pm
Posts: 1733
Location: Nan Belegorn
Started Fighting: 12 Mar 2003
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Blood Vally Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Whatever kills the other person
About half of the bashes I see to legged people end up resulting in a hold (note this is a biased sample as it is only the ones I see). I also don't see them very often. It is rarely advantageous to take more than one or 2 steps to build up speed against a legged opponent. Two steps is also completely sufficient to lay out a person on their leg, and is generally going to be more accurate and minimize contact to the head. I think this proposal probably needs reworded and reworked, but I'm not against the general idea.

_________________
Mekoot Gorlock,
Horde

Kyrian wrote:
Thanks to the rain gods (that includes you, Gorlock)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:07 am 
Underling
Underling
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:27 pm
Posts: 87
Started Fighting: 19 Apr 2009
Realm: Thunder Guard
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board, spear
Gorlock - any suggestions on how this should be reworded?

l feel that the rule addition itself is concise and says exactly what we meant it to say, but the current BoW definitions of shield bash / shield check are insufficient.

_________________
Ranting about the BoW so you don't have to.
(More rants here: http://board.belegarth.com/viewforum.php?f=66)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield bashing legged oppponents
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 3:13 pm 
Ninja
Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 8:58 pm
Posts: 1733
Location: Nan Belegorn
Started Fighting: 12 Mar 2003
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Blood Vally Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Whatever kills the other person
I think most of that section was reworded in the reword, so it should parallel that, but I don't have the time to compare at the moment.

_________________
Mekoot Gorlock,
Horde

Kyrian wrote:
Thanks to the rain gods (that includes you, Gorlock)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
GuildWarsAlliance Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net. Modified by