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 Post subject: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:44 pm 
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Atlantis is compiling Florida's fighting history into an allegoric account of lore... everything from pre-Atlantean history of the region to the conditions that led to the founding of Atlantis as a republic and eventually its shift into an Empire following the disaster.

We're trying to keep it 100% on track with the state's history. Including accurate times that other citystates (chapters/realms) popped up, with some anachronistic deviation for the sake of good storytelling. The destruction of Atlantis representing a HUGE numbers slump the state endured in 2010 just before we started monthly day battles that now break 3-figures. Win for win, loss for loss. Brutally honest about mistakes made and arrogantly honest about successes. We've even created faux cultures to represent local units so we're not hurting people's feelings and our lore does not look like a * written fanfiction with Greeks, Japs, Vikings, Orks, Dragonslayers, Medieval Noblemen, Power Rangers, Werelamps, etc...

The below quote is some FLURBY detail, feel free to skip (TL;DR), it's not essential to my question; just an idea of why I'm being so meticulous with the lore... it goes DEEP.

FLURBFLURBFLURBFLURB wrote:
We put thought into local conditions... such as the construction of buildings (taking influence from the Castillo de San Marcos, a local landmark) being primarily of mud brick and coquina (a limestone formed of shells)... seeing as to how Florida does not have any major quarries.

We took Florida's monthly average temperatures and rainfall into account to develop a 3-season year (Flood, Seed, and Harvest) that starts in June; we use these seasons to shift unit actual focus and keep it fresh. Flood is Atlantean Training Season, Seed is Atlantean Warring Season, and Harvest is Atlantean Garrison (non-combat) season. The year is divided into 12 cycles (moon cycles/months), which are divided into 3 decads (10-day weeks). Our timeline divided into 4 eras (the First Era, the Era of Two Kingdoms, the Republic Era, the Imperial Era). Basically today would be 4.0008.11.18 (Era.Year.Month.Day).

We even considered FL's colonial history to give Atlantis a unique culture (a Greek base culture with influences from Rome, FL in the early to mid 1800s, and US Marine military traditions).

Yes, even cuisine because we're hosting symposia and Greco-Roman influenced festivals at events (based on the Karneia, Lupercalia, etc). The cuisine is a mix of Greek/Italian with FL influence (citrus, garnishes); I even cranked out some Loukoumades the other night.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos- ... 1996_n.jpg


I'm running into a couple speed bumps:

1. How long would one assume a dirty village to become a wealthy capital? I don't necessarily need a number, just maybe some sources or being put on the right track. I'd assume x time for coquina and mudbrick to be laid out and dry... but the real issue being the actual time construction would take.

2. I've been doing research on ship speeds... triremes coming in at 11mph (oar), cargo ships coming in at around 4-6mph (sail)... But I'm trying to figure out a good average speed for a oar-powered cargo ship with a crew of 3 or 4, but know NOTHING about rowing and am pretty sure I'll only get rowing team speeds... which is probably much faster than a cargo ship. Any ideas?

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 Post subject: Re: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:58 pm 
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The answer to both your questions is it depends.

1) Is your city being created by the people who live there, or by a really wealthy dude who felt it was a good spot for a city? Look at all the Alexandrias that popped up. Money make things come fast. No money makes it slower. The curve tends to be exponential ie the closer it is to becoming a capital, the less time it takes to become one. So, best answer I can give.

2) Traditionally, rowers in classical vessels were slaves. So they were pretty good at pounding out one pace consistently since they've been doing it forever. Makes them very poor at doing other things that weren't straight rowing, however, which is why most navies used citizens for their warships. They were better trained at maneuvers and such. Either way, the professionalism of the navy would determine its speed. Its not unlikely they could row at professional row team speeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:37 pm 
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Thanks for the quick reply:

1. The city is being built by the survivors who are living in cramped conditions under canvas. They're pretty worn down by disaster, travel, and war/raids (they're the aggressors for subsistence); however, they're also motivated to get out of those crap conditions and get their creature comforts back.

They're raiding settlements who were once their own apoikiai (colonies with citystate status). Essentially reaffirming fealty or being forcefully subdued, the result being enslavement. Atlantis (by modern lore means) has a slave economy, but it's not fully developed at this point. I'd say there's money involved with some free labor...

2. In the vessel at hand, it's 3 drunkard fishermen. Far from hardened/conditioned slaves. I'm questioning whether 3 (maybe 4) drunks would even be able to handle a ~40-50 foot boat with oars; while they could easily handle it via sail, I'm also questioning the effectiveness of sails in a river lined with forests.

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 Post subject: Re: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 2:47 pm 
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3-5mph are looking like the magic non-skull-boat speed numbers; pros going ~14mph; a little faster than an 11mph average trireme.

So it would be roughly the same speed rowing:sail; but probably not with 3 people, I can always scale the ship down and keep the 3 fishermen at "3 fishermen..." instead of a full crew.

So the city is the issue now.

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 Post subject: Re: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:43 pm 
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Then it comes down to materials and manpower. Honestly, if you're raiding other colonies theyre going to get * and come for you. So it would take a while to set down roots due to not trying to get killed.

Cities tend to pop up where there's one resource in abundance; food in particular. I dont know how far from the coast you are, but if you're not right on it you might want to think of what forms of agriculture or animals you could have to supply food.

After that you'd have to build structures. The first ones would inevitably be wood and possibly clay (depending on the soil). I'd look up the history of the Native American tribes of the area, see what they did.

You'd also have to take into account weather for the types of buildings. Sure, you dont have to worry about earthquakes but what about hurricanes? The Mediterranean, while nasty, does not have the same ability to put out big storms as the Atlantic.

So taking all that into account you'd have to settle down, build houses, build a wall, cultivate some sort of sustenance (or find something people really want to trade for) and grow the population enough they would be able to control the slave pop because remember slave pops are not exactly completely servile. Look at the numerous Helot revolts in later Sparta's history, or the Slave War of Spartacus. And that was just one slave revolt.

It took Rome approximately 600 years to become a real capital city. The major city states of Greece never got there. Alexandria only became a metropolis because it was where Ptolemy sat his rule and was a massive port city. Constantinople was sleepy town until Constantine relocated there.

If you're talking Rome/Constantinople big, there is a lot to do with it besides simply being a capital. You have to import a lot of food. Like a small nation's yearly crop of food. Once those were cut off (Rome's from Northern Africa, Constantinople from Egypt) the cities lost hundreds of thousands in population in a few decades.

Also, sanitation is a key component also. Disease was rampant; only cities with a good drainage system had a chance of growing to a good size.

Carthage may be more of what you're looking for. Theyre history may be a close approximate to what you want. They were a colony of a sea-faring group (Phonecians) who created a port city that later grew to overshadow its parent nation and lasted long after it fell. They had a lot of wealth, large amounts of colonies, and mainly used mercenaries to fight, though thier home troops were quite good. They had large servile populations, not only slaves but non-citizens.


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 Post subject: Re: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:59 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 6:42 pm 
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I love pretty much everything you've done with Atlantis and FL foam-fighting in general and this is something akin to what I've wanted to do with Babylon but we're a little too small for the scale you're talking about. Please keep us abreast of how you're doing this.
I made a trime out of cardboard in 8thgrade with a boxcutter and duct-tape. You should get Gorg to figure out how to do that then go crazy lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Lore, Flurb, and Historic Numbers/Math
PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 6:04 pm 
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Thanks for the kind words Remy.

Peanut, thanks for your involvement, I greatly appreciate the food for thought.

Atlantis' territory is heavily based off mosquito lagoon in Florida... I blended old spanish maps with google maps - turning major interstates into rivers... eg: I-4 is the "Ephoros" river.

Anyway, Atlantis is basically a saltmarsh, covered in mangroves. The old city was essentially mudbrick houses on top of mudbrick ruins... a mound (mounds being accurate from FL to Mississippi River). The old city was erected on an island in the middle of the lagoon, "the tempest" (comparable to a Katrina-level hurricane) flooded the city and it collapsed under its own weight. The ruins are hallowed ground.

Post-disaster, the survivors started off hunting the dangerous inland forests - eventually raiding the bestial hordes (satyrs, led by both centaur and minotaur warlords - with their own racial and cross-tribe in-fighting).

They end up settling on the inlet. North of the ruins (based off ponce inlet IRL, just north of New Smyrna Beach).

That said...

The local resources being from the lagoon, which is a pretty famous esturary. Tons of redfish, blacktip sharks, waterfowl, my father and I even counted 72 gators sunning on the banks in a single day, several years ago. So it's good on food. I was looking at citrus and crocodile (gator just sounds so mundane) as well as lion (Atlantean Lion = FL panther, they're just bigger and more aggressive in lore) hide, and war loot from the beasts as well as encroaching xenoi citystates as trade items. I was looking into SOuthern plantations as well, whatever cash crops could have grown in FL. Sugarcane just does not feel even quasi-Greek. So I was considering honey to be a major export too.

We actually have a few slave revolt events on the backburner now.

I THINK mudbrick would be fine, but the more iconic structures (the Imperial Academy, Imperial Palace) are made of coquina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coquina), which is a local limestone the Spanish used to make the Castillo de San Marcos. Atlanteans also have the flood season, which is basically our storm season... most ships dry dock in sheds and this is where a majority of the Imperial Nautikon (or Imperial Navy) conduct their training operations. So, yes... weather is heavily taken into account and I would imagine a rain system would be key in fresh water.

Anyway, the Timucua first nation was the local native element. Their villages consisted of summer and winter structures (Florida heat sucks). Most of their structures were pretty much pavilions. Four wood posts holding up a roof. Walls came and went as needed. They did have some mud "watch posts" which you can see two of them at the entrance of this village: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... illage.jpg - a lack of walls might cut down on construction time too.

As for sanitation and Carthage, looking into them now via google and my university's database.

Thank you very much!

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