20 foot spear

[Nix]

I have the opportunity to buy a 1 1/4" by 20' poltuded fiberglass tube. If all the length is used that can be a twenty and a half foot long spear. I have a 8 1/2 foot long glaive which works well and is my primary weapon system. Has anyone fought with a longer spear and what are the pro/cons on using one? Is there such a thing as too long a spear? Will a spear that has about 4 feet more (12 1/2 feet) reach than the average spear work just as well?-Nix

[Kyrian]

If you had 255 other guys with 20' pikes you could do one of these:



One can only dream...

But, seriously,

Advantages:

1) Reach out and touch someone...I'm a firm believer in engaging the enemy at your maximum effective range, preferably outside of melee range. This, along with archery, are the ultimate extensions of that.

2) Safety for spear: With a pike that long, you would be a prime target. As an archer, I know I'd be looking to take you out. However, you could still contribute to the shield wall while standing several ranks back increasing your survivability.

Disadvantages:

1) Needs a lot of support to be effective: You would need several fighters to provide flank, rear, and missile protection. Pikes are best suited when massed together with lots of friends, i.e., a phalanx or a Swiss pike square.

2) Difficult to control: A pike of that length is most effective against targets to its front. Having to change angles rapidly or to rotate to one of the flanks would be a challenge. You run into the possibility of hafting or tripping friendlies as you try to change the direction of the pike.

3) Increased likelihood of getting grabbed: With all of the haft on that pike, I'm fairly sure that people will see that as an opportunity to try and grab the weapon, either tying it up or succeeding in obtaining it for their team.

A pike of that length would be a great start for a combined arms unit. But again, it is a support weapon that needs other fighters and weapons to enhance its strengths and mitigate its weaknesses.

Kyrian

[Spike]

I'm going to have to agree with Kyrian. While looking totally badass, oversized weapons tend to be unwieldy and make you much more likely to be picked off by archers.

I'm not very familiar with pultruded-fiberglass, so I'm really just baffled at how you could make it without a 45? flex. Something of that length has to whip like a *.

[Chicken]

I'm horribly jealous. If there's any way you can get more of those, PM me and I'll be your best friend forever.

As far as I saw, I had the longest pole on the field at Octoberfest with my ~10.5' spear, which I love. As Kyrian says, you will be a huge mark for archers (as I'm sure you're already well aware using a glaive). I wouldn't be at all surprised if between the two of them Kegg and Kyrian shot me a dozen times just on Saturday at ock-fest . You want friends with shields, though one slightly counterintuitive thing I've found is that the longer the polearm, the less you need support against charging melee fighters. There's such a large space between the inside end of my threat range and the outside threat range of someone with a sword that I have no problem pulling up my spear and readying the dagger I hold in my back hand. With a 20' spear you'd have even more time, though you also probably wouldn't be able to bring the spear up in defense and would have to rely on a slung shield or be ready to go florentine to defend yourself.

I don't think you would see much benefit in having a single 20' spear over a single 12.5' spear, and in fact I bet you'd probably be better off with just the 12. The problem is that at 20' out, you and archers are going to be the only things threatening an opposing line, and it's not that hard to defend against a single spear you're paying attention to. Also, 20' is so long that, as Kyrian says, you're going to have a hard time swinging down the line to rapidly switch targets and catch people unaware. The advantage of a single 12' spear would not be so much that you'd be able to attack people 4' before they can attack you (thou that certainly helps!) as that when the long weapons on both sides are engaged, you can attack many more people than they can, and than your victims will expect.

That said, while a single 20' spear might not due you as much could as you could hope, 3 or 4 of them working together would be an unholy terror that I would love to be a part of . No offense intended, but one of my favorite times during octoberfest was when Hydra and Heidoran were lined up across from a bunch of your fellow Uruks, who appeared to be without much leadership and had no poles or bows. I think we had at least 5 working together, and we just slowly marched forward, butchering everyone and not receiving a single hit because they didn't charge and they couldn't respond at our reach.

Don't underestimate the value of just a few extra feet, either (depending on how many of these things you can get a hold of). Especially for a unit, just having two 10' cored spears could do you wonders - I regularly find myself at an advantage over opposing polearms using my spear, even though it's just two feet longer, as they spend all their time desperately not quite reaching me, and I can just send a few thrusts in at them every now and then to keep them safely back while I kill their comrades (or actually connect and kill them when they try to get in close enough to get me : ). It also probably helps that my 10.5' spear is amazingly light, though - I imagine 1.25" poltruded fiberglass is heavier than bandpole.

Oh, and Kyrian is right about people trying to snatch it. People tried that a few times at Octoberfest and succeeded once, though it was a bit of a pyrrhic victory since they actually wound up pulling me into their line, where I made a big whole and killed two or three of them . IME, people tend to be pretty obvious about it. It's usually the guy straight in front of you (somewhat ironically, since they're also your worst target), and you can usually see when the switch their weapon to their shield hand even when they try to be sneaky and keep their free hand hidden behind their shield.

[Kyrian]

Kind of following up with the combined arms thing...

Now if you have:

-a couple of 20' spears
-a couple of 18' spears
-a couple of 12' spears
-a couple of 10' spears
-a couple of 10' glaives
-a couple of 8' spears
-a couple of 8' glaives

Shudder...

In a nutshell, you're covering much of the dead space of the 20' spear with other nasties. A person would probably be a little less likely to try and grab at the pike if there are other things that might get him while he tries.

Kyrian

[Oisin]

That would be an archer's wet dream to see across from him, though. Two archers, and it would take 30 seconds for that formation to be dead.

[Chicken]

That would be an archer's wet dream to see across from him, though. Two archers, and it would take 30 seconds for that formation to be dead.

I don't know about that. A helmet and a slung shield will suddenly make you a much more difficult target for an archer. Two archers wouldn't be able to deal out death at anywhere near the rate of a formation like that, and they wouldn't have a lot of time to work on it since that formation could pretty much just walk right through the line protecting the archers... .

[Kyrian]

Sorry,

To that formation I should have included

-several shield fighters to protect the spears and glaives
-a couple of archers for fire support and counterfire

And to second what Chicken said, if the pike unit was aggressive, it could tear down the front ranks of the opposing unit while the the pike unit's archers could keep the other unit's archers occupied.

Kyrian

[Shratisfaction]

yes but I feel a whole unit of short spears(around 6 feet and a half or so)with the same amount of surport would be far more effective.
Short spears
-have greater maverbilty
-far more acurate
-better abilty to out flank
-have a higher defensive qualty due to the easyer alibty to block with a shorter haft.
the only thing a longer spear unit has on the short spear is just that reach but that is trumped by all of which the short has to offer as a unit.

[Mawr]

One of the main problems I see with a 20 foot spear is excessive flex and it would probably be easy to break.

[Nix]

I have been thinking about a longer spear since I ran into Chicken or someone else with a spear longer than my glaive. The * could reach out anf touch me and I could get him.
2 sources for longer fiber glass poles
>1 on Ebay with the search "SCA Spears" excerpt from their online ad.
Their price is three dollars a foot.

NEW FOR WYNDSYNGYR'S WAR GEAR! FIBERGLASS PIKES BY THE FOOT!!!

Greetings all!

Wyndsygnyr's War Gear is happy to announce that we've found a wonderful source for 1.25" poltruded fiberglass tube with .125" walls. This is the 'green' fiberglass tube that is used for pikes up to 12 feet.

We sell this material BY THE FOOT and then we cut it for you before we ship it. Currently, we have 20 20 foot lengths of tubing (400 total feet) and we will be selling it for $3/foot. So, the price for your average pike sizes:

9 feet (pike cut to 8.5 feet to allow 6 total inches for pike head and butt cap) is $25.50

10 feet (pike cut to 9.5 to allow 6 total inches for pike head and butt cap) is $28.50

12 feet (pike cut to 11.5 to allow 6 total inches for pike head and butt cap) is $34.50

SHIPPING: PLEASE NOTE that a 12 footer, shipped whole, is a bit of an issue with UPS, so unless you're local (Seattle) it will probably have to be cut.

UPS requires that anything over 84" (but less than 108) in total length and girth go as 'oversized 1' class. It helps if we cut the pikes down to get it in regular shipping prices, but then you need a splice which is also available through us for $2.00 (please see the ebay auction for splices and purchase through there)

If you have any questions, please ask!

OR 2

Pole Vault Crossbars that are standard lenghth or 14' 10". that cost betweem $31 and $100 depending on the quality.

That killer with these is the shipping price that often excedes the cost of the item.-Nix

PS I don't think a phalanx unit like the Macedonianan, Scots. or the Swiss would work in Belegarth even without missile weapons. The Roman put paid the Macedonians and the Spanish put paid the Swiss both by fighting sword and board and expoiting or making gaps in the phananx and butcheing phalangist at sword point. Combined arms is the way to go. Ask the French at Agincourt or the Scots at Falkirik.

[vek]

i love you guys, this was a really interesting adn informative read on spears, thanx

[debuenzo]

i was wondering Nix.....when using your 8 1/2 foot glaive....have you ever thought....man, i wish this thing was like 12 feet longer...?

cause to me 8-10 feet is sufficient....and i cannot imagine wielding such a weaopn

[Sir Farrin]

the biggest downfall that jumps to mind is how ineffective is the spear inside of 20' you will seriously have to be a very moble fighter because once a fighter is inside the spear head the manuverability of the weapon becomes dangerous and mostly worthless. I also think that a 20' spear is a great idea for a real battle where the fighting is much slower, but just not for belegarth.

[panda mime]

I'm going to come out and say it.
This is just silly.

[Kyrian]

Lyric,

Why do you think it's silly? Impractical without support, perhaps, but silly?

Kyrian

[Shratisfaction]

Yes but if had enough surport an more mobile short spear unit is far far far better.
SILLY>:

[Nix]

20 feet might be silly in all but in major events, but having 3 more feet than the other pole arm facing is the difference between connecting and not connecting. When I lose my support in a skirmish, my 8.5' glaive is used more like a slanted cross body shield to channel attackers and I use my backup broadsword for the attack. But with 400 on the field at Okfest '05 or in a bridge battle an extra pokee could be deadly. Someone like Skrat at 120? would have trouble wielding the spear but a big guy like me would not. The Swiss carried 20'+ pikes of ash (a medium weight but srpingy wood) with iron pike head on campaign.-Nix

[Faolan]

Were did you get that core Chicken?

[Teej]

Would be nice to see a unit use that effectively.

[Faolan]

Someone should wiki this.
(I would but I don't know how)

[bo1]

Most poles in Bel are around 8.5 feet. This is because the proliferation of band shop poles. Those are 8 feet and with a pommel and stabby end its about 8.5 feet. So if you had a bunch of 10.5 foot poles line battles would be in range for you and out of range for everyone else, which equals success. But this philiosophy has deminishing returns because of the cost of the poles and the wieght. Shipping for a 20 foot pole is astronomical. also if you are 20' long you can't manuver as fast or as well as say 10.5'. I think the upper limit for this is somewhere around 12 feet. At this legnth the cores aren't so expensive, but the range makes you safer from other poles. What i would do is cut it in half and make 2 really good glaives. Work to gether with the 8.5 poles and remember a glaive is a spear that can break shields once they are gimped.
its just my opinion, those are like *, everybody's got'em. don't hate me for mine and i will do the same.
ps Being part of Hydra we know polearms, Chicken is an expert at them, the rest of us are learning fast.

[Faolan]

How many polearms do you guys have?

[bo1]

i think at last count we had 15 but thats an estimate. We also have about 8 more 8' pole cores so in the end maybe 5 spears and 15 glaives. We love the * things. Thats why the Iron crown was so god for us. We were able to fight with the poles behind the giant Uruk line, with the Men of the East protecting our flanks.

[Faolan]

Iron Crown is pretty sweet......

*cry*

[Izanaki]

One of the main problems I see with a 20 foot spear is excessive flex and it would probably be easy to break.

One scenario for breaking this would be something as simple as you going for a low leg stab, someone to the left or right, trips, falls, and snaps the spear.

the biggest downfall that jumps to mind is how ineffective is the spear inside of 20' you will seriously have to be a very moble fighter because once a fighter is inside the spear head the manuverability of the weapon becomes dangerous and mostly worthless. I also think that a 20' spear is a great idea for a real battle where the fighting is much slower, but just not for belegarth.

Thats true, and if the charge in your spear will become useless, unless there are swordsmen around which can hold him off from charging while you fall back until you have range enough to get him with your spear.