Rough Take Down

[savetuba]

So we have a fighter who is using a wood core tower sheild and is a short stocky person so trying to sheild bash him doesn't work. However I was told will raiding LA that I (or anyone else) should rush him, drop our right weapon and use that arm to leg sweep while checking the sheild to make the sheild man fall backward for a hard landing.

I'm wondering if this is a valid tactic and should it be used to take down an opponent?

[Osric]

Gotta be quick enough to tie up his arm so he can't strike with it, but I've done this a few times successfully. I try not to be too rough though, because sometimes a leg sweep turns into the sweeper just falling on the swept. I'm a heavy guy which means bad things for the dudes I fall on. Anyway, after taking down said opponent, try to take his weapon or if you can, just pin him until your teammates kill him.

[GvK]

I've aways thought tripping was decidely against the spirit of Dag (and Bel) combat. I'm pretty sure if I tripped someone running by me rather than try to engage them in combat that they'd be rightfully * off. I know I would be. As we all know, most injuries from (safe) shield checks and bashes came from LANDING (i.e., hitting the gound in an uncontrolled manner) and tripping a person, especially when they are not expecting it, is a sure recipe for sending someone for an uncontrolled landing = messed up knees and ankles. Bad. But, this is all just my opinion...

[bo1]

If you look at other sports, tripping is usually against the rules. It does pose a saftey risk higher than that of normal combat. Of course, shield bashing is the same way but i support the ability to do that. I would like to keep things as safe as possible so as to enjoy this sport until my later years. If i get tripped and tear my knee apart that will probibly end it for me. I have never seen a trip on the field and i hope it stays that way.

[debuenzo]

no trips, throws, joint/nerve holds

now i would say that you could grab his legs so he cant walk and eventually stumble down
but coming in, pushing him while pulling his leg would make him fall very hard, very fast
and you wouldnt want to hurt the guy, right?

[Kage]

I would consider the fact that the leg is wrapped up with the arm when you shield bash is a tripping move or throw and would be illegal.

[savetuba]

ok, so no on the grapple, but if I apply the same theory to using a weapon, IE, duck low and wrap a sword around his leg in an atempt to take out a leg it should be legal right?

[Big King Jimmy]

I would say yes, IF your trying to strike the leg.

[Dr. Kazi]

If you duck low and lunge at a guy with a tower be prepared to get a mouthful of shield or weapon.

[Tulio]

Ya, if you are trying to hit their leg it would work.

[Angmarth]

The following couple of paragraphs don't answer the question in this thread, but are some thoughts about grappling in general.

**********************

There are 2 kinds of grappling.

1) The legal grappling listed in the BoW
2) Grappling people do to each other because it is consented

For the most part #1 is always what happens with new people. #2 is a little more complex. What I tell people is this, "If you want to get rougher than the BoW, just make sure your opponent consents". If you have a reputation for rough (yet safe) grappling, people will let you get away with more. They will also expect to be able to do more to you. The upside to this is that your group will become good at avoiding grapples if they want to, and winning them if they are in them. In the greater St. Louis in general (Arnor, Rhudaur (Dag), Riverbend) we do a great deal of grappling and bashing. Sometimes we even practice it. The first couple of events we attended as a Realm back in 2000 many of our members were "surprised" at how the level of contact was less than at home. Teach your people how to:

1) Grapple safely
2) Bash and Edge safely
3) Fall safely

You will lose some folks on the bubble who don't like to be run over all the time, but those who stick with it will be ready for anything. I'm not talking about always abusing your people, because I certainly don't encourage that. Just make sure that your members are ready for anything that they will see at national events and up that one notch.

[Thorondor]

Trying to sweep the leg with an arm is just a bad idea in general. The two big reasons I can think of are:
1) Puts your head low - easy to get hit with their leg, shield, weapon, etc
2) Makes them fall in an uncontrolled manner - can break their arm if they put it behind them to brace their fall

The best bet would be to swing for their leg to try and gimp them. Wrap their shield wide and try to get enough force from your wrist to get the connecting shot to have enough force to count.

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Going from Angmarth's post -
Yes, we do bash and grapple a LOT around here. Personally I love bashing, even though I'm only 6' 160. With enough practice you learn how to take the hits and shift the advantage away from the person bashing you.

The one thing I want to expand on with teaching is falling safely.

~?~

On second thought, I'll go start a thread in general so everyone can read it. Thread here

[Black Cat]

I prefer shield pushing and charging to shield bashing. I am 5' 11" and 140 pounds, so one wouldn't think I could charge with any kind of force, but I have done it to Osric before. I nearly knocked him off his feet. I don't bash with much force though and it takes too long for me to put my shield back in front of me if I miss.

[Osric]

I dunno about that Black Cat, I was squatting and was off balance already. You're just not heavy enough man.

[Black Cat]

I didn't put all of my effort into that charge either. That was probably about 75-80% of my full effort that I put into that charge. I'll run harder next time we fight when I have a punch shield if you want.

[Sir_Mel]

personally I'm fine with you using what you have to take me (or whoever). I would just say use your own discression (sp?) when doing this. I wouldn't pull something like this on a 100 lb. little person but I would definitely use this king of thing on someone of a large stature and build. Actually, is it legal to full out football tackle someone? Cause if you had a back shield and just all out charged someone (especially a spear/glaive user) you could really do some damage (so to speak) with a little dagger and your body. I dunno, just what I was thinking.
Later

[Ohtar]

Even a person who knows how to fall correctly can hit their head or worse when that type of move is executed. I'm a belivever of controlled take downs, not trips or throws. A variation that i would find exceptable would be to grab the person, and pull them on top of you as you fall back. You take the risk, but since you know it's coming you can roll with it. Once you are both down your team mates can kill him or you have a dagger or short sword ready for his back.

Play Hard/Play Rough/Play Safe

[Sir_Mel]

aha, time for some sick/awesome judo/aikido moves to be pulled at loderia practice.

[Diego the Goat]

Sweeping the leg is illegal, unsafe and dangerous. It's a hair's breadth away from a strike, and also an intentional trip. The potential for injury is staggering, from broken ankles, knee damage, falling, etc.

Don't do it.

Have someone break his shield.
Hit him with a javelin.
Shoot him with an arrow.
Kick the shield aside.
Spar him until you learn to work past his defenses.