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 Post subject: Aiming a flail
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:30 am 
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I'd like to know what way you guys aim with your flails. Do you aim with the head or the shaft? Which way would you suggest?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:59 am 
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I aim as if the ball wasn't there it increases your likely hood if landing a hit.

Plus there is the Wrap-Factor...

Blocking flails THAT is the hard part


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:05 pm 
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yeah i agree that if you aim the haft then the ball will fall in line.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:16 pm 
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Then again, if you intentionally hit with the haft, you're technically breaking the rules, as one is not supposed to intentionally hit with a non-striking portion of a weapon...

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:34 am 
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yeah. all the intentional haft shots can get annoying quickly.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:31 am 
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I just close my eyes and keep swinging until someone falls over clutching their head...
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Seriously though I just try to imagine my flail as a sword that is slightly longer than the actaul flai really is. I want the haft of the flail to bounce off the blocking weapon and the ball to strike.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:03 pm 
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what they mean by saying that they swing as if the head wasnt there is that they are swinging at a shield so that the haft hits the shield and the head wraps around it, not that they are swinging at a persons leg with the haft.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:33 pm 
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I know. I've just gotten a lot of side/shoulder/arm/leg hits from haft. It's not as if they hurt particularly, but they seem... illegal to me. and it bothers me that so many people still seem to encourage it.

I suppose it is fine against shields and swords.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:57 am 
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well... that's why the incedental padding is there.

plus with a flail you need to make the most of the wrap. you're not aiming with the haft so much as the full weapon. whenever i throw a shot with a flail, i purposly try to get the flail to wrap.

so you're not aiming with the haft, you're just trying to get the ball to wrap.

in conclusion, you need to keep both parts of the flail in mind

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:37 pm 
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Magpie - there are 2 schools of thought on hafting being illegal. The main school is that hitting with something other than a striking surface is illegal and hits resulting from that are ignored. The other schoool is that it is totally ok to hit with any part of the weapon but only the striking surface counts. It really depends on where you fight. Some groups train people to hit with a flail haft so the ball hits, other groups tell people who haft hit to leave and not come back. In either case, aiming with the haft so that the ball hits is fine. It is the actual contact with the haft to a person which is in contention. Ironically, most people who think haft hits are illegal would be fine with it if the hafts were padded safe enough for full force while those who think there is nothing wrong with hafting use the fact that the haft is not a striking surface as reasoning for less padding. Weird.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:02 pm 
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also i might not have been specific enough...

i mean aim at a sheild with the haft

but when your not fighting a sheild aim with the ball normally

unless you're specifically going after an arm, then you may want to aim the top of the haft at the hand so you can get the ball to wrap

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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:27 am 
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It is easy to kill with a flail but it is hard to be good with a flail.

to be good with one you need to know how to control the head very well. i have a harder time with that with rope flails so i use bag flails. i aim with the head, you need to know what that head is doing. but also flail skills will come if you have sword skills. i really did not start useing a flail tell i felt i was above average with one. soon as i did start picking up a flail. I worked with laqutus, who is amazing with a flail, and then with that i am learning to use a flail. But like i said with out good sword skills you are just going to be going out and swinging and getting lucky. alot of the time i almost use my flail like a sword but with just a tip sticking surface. like fighting with anything else, you still need them to open them selves up.

Just my opinion

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PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:46 pm 
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all most people fight with in some places is flais....there lame....u dont need any skil to use them....and as pink said....any noob can get a shot off haha...plus he sucks with flail fighting so whatev hahaha
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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:29 pm 
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I prefer swords but I can kill a little better with flails...

I think the reason we all use flails (guys around here) is because we are lazy and it takes alot less shots with a flail to kill than a sword.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:09 pm 
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MeleeMoses wrote:
u dont need any skil to use them


I have heard the same about sheilds and spears. The few weapons that people see as taking skill are swords, javs, and bow&arrows.

What I have seen are people making flails and the upper part of the haft is made to act like a club. so if you do over swing the hit still counts. Then they use the flail like it was a sword with a little extra wrap to it.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:16 pm 
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I didn't think that was legal. Maybe I'm wrong but I could've sworn somebody with authority said you couldn't do that.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:59 pm 
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I've heard the same thing.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 10:15 am 
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its not, you can't hit peeps with the haft on proupse. no matter what the padding on it.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:10 pm 
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Show me the rule in the BOw that says we can not hit people with a striking surface on a flail and I'll let the others know, otherwise it is legal and will be continued untill enough people * about it to the WC.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 1:20 pm 
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savetuba wrote:
Show me the rule in the BOw that says we can not hit people with a striking surface on a flail and I'll let the others know, otherwise it is legal and will be continued untill enough people * about it to the WC.

I think I am good aboute taking my hits but if someone keep hitting me on purpose with a flail haft I am going to start calling haft and not taken it. I believe this question has been answered several times in rule question forum.
http://belegarth.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=17033

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:38 pm 
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why would you try to hit people with a non stricking surface??

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:27 pm 
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The Pink wrote:
why would you try to hit people with a non stricking surface??


It is a sriking surface. Think club/mace that has a ball and chain added. I took a measurement and after 1 added layer of foam, rule 1.4.5.1 can be passed on either the flail head or the shaft.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:48 pm 
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but it is not a club/mace, it is a flail with not as much padding on the haft. it is a flail or a club not both.

1.4.5.1. The striking surface must haves a minimum circumference of fifteen (15) inches measured on separate axes.

how does that say you can get a flail passed based off the haft??
it says the stricing surface on a flail is the ball, 1.1.6. Flail ? Any hinged Weapon, if this is not what you are explain it better.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:24 pm 
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take your average club weapon. It passes as a club/mace. Now when you measure the circumference it is about 13 inches. add one more layer to it and you have about 15 inches circumference of striking surface (on the X axis). Now instead of having a stabing tip you add the chain and ball. the ball is 6 inches in diameter or less giving you the right sized flail head. Now there is NOTHING in the rules against this type of weapon. it has 1 hinge. It is still blue. It applys all rules of both club and flail and passes.

let us examine this part of the rule:
circumference of fifteen (15) inches measured on separate axes. (isn't the spelling axis?)

Looking at a 32oz gatoraid bottle I can measure the X axis (around the label part) = 8-9 inches, the Y axis (along the seam of the bottle) = over 14 inches and the Z axis (1/4 turn of the bottle, just like the Y) = 14+ inches.

Applying that to a flail head or haft is the same principals.

When a person is using this weapon there are a lot less people saying haft, or wrap, or light because you now know the haft isn't a haft, but a striking surface.

[rant] and for someone to tell me it doesn't pass because of something they can say IS NOT in the BOW then that is *. Like sheild tacoing. Does not say that in the rules anywere but yet I have hade nearly every single one of my sheilds fail because someone could make the X axis touch (um that is where my arm would have been and if you can make my arm bend like that then ok I won't use it for safty sake)

I would personally like to see the BOW edited to include the random * that weapon checkers pull on us. like 'gee you cant use that because that rule (1.4.5.1)was ment for flail heads only.' Then SAY that in the dam rules other wise there will be people (like me) who will read the rules and build something acording to those rules only to find out they can't use it because the community doesn't know how to say this rule applys to this only. [/rant]

To recap;
So you can call it a flail, but it also has a rounded striking surface for about a foot down the flail past the hinge. In the rules there is nothing that says you can't have such a weapon.

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PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:26 pm 
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The Pink wrote:
it says the stricing surface on a flail is the ball


Can you quote the BOW where it says it must be the ball measured?

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:01 am 
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Savetuba's right. The current rules for flails as described currently by the book of war are:

Book of War wrote:
1.4.5. Flails must conform to the following:
1.4.5.1. The striking surface must haves a minimum circumference of fifteen (15) inches measured on separate axes.
1.4.5.2. The maximum chain/hinge length is six (6) inches.
1.4.5.3. The maximum overall length is forty (40) inches.
1.4.5.4. The hinged part of the flail must be padded with foam to keep the chain from easily entangling a Weapon or body part. No more than 1 ? inches of chain may be exposed.
1.4.5.5. Only one hinge per flail is allowed.


I think it has not been addressed by the BOW because it's generally understood that the head is the striking surface of the flail, as referred to in 1.4.5.1. IMO we should add that detail specifically to the BOW if that is how the rule is to be enforced.

In the meantime, the Marshal is within their right to not allow the haft as a striking surface in accordance to the BOW under 1.4, which was designed with the knowledge that the BOW can never address *every* possible scenario:

Book of War wrote:
1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.


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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:05 am 
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Zzyzx wrote:
the Marshal is within their right to not allow the haft as a striking surface in accordance to the BOW


Or allow. And in our case I'm the closest thing anyone has to a qualified Marshal in the area.

And for clarification, I wrote the above to support the guys who don't get online but use the weapon all the time.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:20 am 
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Yup, it's an unwritten rule. The best justification for it in the rules I've seen would be to call it an illegal "double-ended weapon", but that's stretching. Should it be added to the BoW? Certainly, as should a lot of the other things in there, a number of which are universally followed (no core in a flail head, heralds wear yellow) but aren't actually in there anywhere.

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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 8:34 am 
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Image Look at the flail in that pic. There are plenty of examples in pictures of these types of flails. That is exactly why it is assumed that the incidental padding isn't a striking surface.

You're right though, it does need to be addressed in the book of war if not for the simple fact that people min/max the rules all the time to get an edge. I'll be bring my long hafted mace with bare minimum haft padding to Arm just to prove a point. Because if that fails for insufficient haft padding and not enough striking surface, those kind of flails should fail too.

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 3:26 pm 
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V-hil FTW

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:27 pm 
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haha god flails are gay

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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:17 pm 
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wow, way to get off topic. I personally respect people for being able to use flails and use them well. I can't say I've done a lot of fighting with flails mostly because I hate using shields and because I don't own a flail. But if you can use a flail effectively, have at it. If not, stop rippin on the people who can, they'll come beat your * into the ground.
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:08 am 
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Wait... using a flail takes skill? This is news... TO EVERYONE.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:19 am 
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I would not say using a flail takes skill. Just like I would say that using a spoon does not take skill.

But even though I can use a spoon, I can't PLAY the spoons, which does take skill, to do very well.

Flails are the same way. Anyone can use a flail and get better instantly, but you can still improve you skill even further from there. Just like swords, there are good flail users, and there are great flail users.

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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2006 8:10 am 
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playing the radio take skill, tune it just right, that right up there with playing an instrument :D :D

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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 7:57 pm 
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and it's not like flails don't have disadvantages....

they are generaly slower than swords because of the momentum of the head

and here's the way i look at it

if you wanted to win, why wouldn't you use the best weapon you could get?

it makes perfect sense to me to use a weapon that gives you an advantage after all, as i see it, most battles are won two ways:numbers, or superior technology

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PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 6:19 am 
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I agree with Grey, but from what I've seen from pictures and movies on the web it looks like most people use swords anyway.

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if you want to use one use it. just don't try to pass it of as if you are mastering some hard to use weapon i I can do better with flail but for me its not only aboute winning. I realy don't care use a flail I will take my hits and smile and have fun. lots of my friends use flails.

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Sir Peregrine the Paragon of Paladins
Thengel of Muxlovia.
Loyal brother in arms to Sir Beauregaurd

Clan of the Hydra
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 8:39 pm 
Brute
Brute
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 1:51 pm
Posts: 580
Location: Salem, Oh
Started Fighting: 0- 0-2004
Realm: Khatovar
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board
yeah, but all i'm saying is that flails are not "talent on a stick"

i don't think they take anymore skill to use than a sword though...

and like i said, they both have their pro's and con's. it's just that for a lot of people, a flails set of pro's and con's are easier to deal with.

but if you give me a sword, i can do nearly as well with it as with a flail.

in fact, with the breaking of my flail, i have been using swords and it hasn't really impacted my fighting very much.

so all i want is for people to lay off us flail users.

i hate it when these people get * off when they get beat by a flail user.

if you don't want to get beat because of the flail, either switch to a flail to even the odds, or keep you weapon and quit your *'!

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Captain of Khatovar
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:47 pm 
Warrior
Warrior
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 10:47 am
Posts: 722
Location: Numenor/Isengard
Started Fighting: 15 Jul 1999
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Uruk-Hai and Iron Crown
Favorite Fighting Styles: Tanked-out Sword and Shield
Tanked-out Spear
Leading my Troops
You guys wanna argue flails... Get informed about ALL the arguments made in the past by reading this LONG thread. And save the arguing for the winter. It's warm out and everyone just wants to fight, not argue online.

http://www.belegarth.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=13294

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:33 pm 
Slayer
Slayer
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Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Posts: 1016
Location: Salamandastron
I'm with V-Hil this has been argued to death, but it will keep resurrecting. Because as more and more recruits join they'll start *, adn all the vets will say "We know SHUT UP"

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