Belegarth

You know, if I was using one of those fairy-wands, I could be as bad-ass as those guys, too.

That is excellent video. Alot of these shots can and do work in Belegarth, regardless of weight. Many of the spins ADD so much power to a shot. It's a shame that we're so strict on stabbing weapons that many of us can not try out some of these attacks.

it's possible to make a belegarth legal weapon to work like one of those. Granted, itn's not easy, but hey, if you can pull some crazy **** like that, I'd definitely make one. Definitely gonna have to try some of those this thursday.

Watch someone like Bhakdar, Sir Kenneth, Atilla, Spazzz, or even myself. You'll see us pull off some of these exact shots in combat, both with clubs and swords.

Actually Sir Arthon, the main guy in the video, with the oval shield is using a decently weighted weapon, easilly within your weight requirements for Belegarth - it isn't an ultralight.

It would be really cool to check facts before flaming someone mercer. Dalos and Brennon - the others in the video are all using lights, though they are at your weight minimum for blues I would suspect. Zig, the tall lefty switches between heavy and light. Every one of those shots is very possible with a heavy weapon.

Just because they aren't shaped like bluefoam/formed/edhellen weapons doesn't mean they are light. Should also be mentioned that every one of those guys are combat knights and 3 of them are warlords if not all of them (one I am not sure). They can do the same stuff with heavier swords.

So, you're saying I should apologise for making a comment about the weapons being light, when most of the weapons in the video are ultralights? I fail to see where I was wrong. Just a little background: I'm of the opinion that our minimums are too low, and thus... wait for it... weapons barely making the cut are too light (I know, shocker).

Another note: compared to most, I suck. However, my orginal point stands: pulling off shots like that would be easier if I was using an ultralight.

'Fang - I've been on the receiving end of some moves like this, especially since Bhakdar came to Dur Demarion, so I know it's possible.

The shots in this video are all pretty nice shots. I will put money on it that i could pull off any of thoughs shots with a 16 oz. sword eazy. It's not the fact that u have to be fast with your arms. It's the fact that you have to learn how to position your shots to be able to flow and get momentom off one another....Don't * about weapon weight(although it may help) because they do know how to use there whole body weight to pull all of there shots off.....
My spelling blows *....

I deleted my last post because it wasn't clearing and my computer kept timing out. Anyway, I can almost do those shots, but I don't have my momentum down good yet. I am doing well for having only fought for a few months though.

Mercer wrote:So, you're saying I should apologise for making a comment about the weapons being light, when most of the weapons in the video are ultralights?

I didn't ask anything of you other than to check your facts before tearing good fighters down. Secondly they all fall within your game's weight minimums except for maybe Dalos's weapon, so I dont see the need to make comments that make them seem any less talented.

That is all.

Most of it is about footwork and body movement, not just the sword swing.

Man I wish I had awesome garb like those guys in that movie.

Winfang wrote:That is excellent video. Alot of these shots can and do work in Belegarth, regardless of weight. Many of the spins ADD so much power to a shot. It's a shame that we're so strict on stabbing weapons that many of us can not try out some of these attacks.

Winfang, do spins actually work for you? I have always been told that nobody should never EVER spin during a fight unless absolutley nessisary.

But seriously, excellent video. I'm gonna try and learn these shots as best I can.

The Spin Slot works for me pretty well. I have difficulty getting the 512. The Spin Shot works well but I don't practice it enough.

A few little spins work for me. The video is great to build your shot variety. The footwork in it will help you to be more dynamic while fighting.

I'm not sure of the differences between common fighting at Amtguard events and ours, there may be more one on one tournament or smaller more spread out stuff to allow more face to face. This could contribute to more flair. Getting around a shield with a spin while facing a wall is a good way to get killed. No dispersions to the fighters, I plan on practicing several of those shots.

It is definitely not something that is built for line fighting. However, certain spins in certain circumstances have a really high success rate. They allow for some unique feints and wraps that are not possible while directly facing your opponent, especially without having a defensive measure.

Spin shots out there aren't really built just for the flair. They have a real purpose, footwork/movement to defend or distract, and feints/wrapshots that are exagerated to raise the chance of a hit.

You have to have speed, good timing, and great balance / footwork to use them effectively as a staple of your fighting style.

I do not yet know the practical application of it in a game where someone can shield check me during the maneuver. My guess is the theory is the same, I just have to make sure the timing and speed is right.

Amtgard has its fair share of large line battles. These moves are not great for it, they are really more for flankers in large battles or small outnumbered solo situations, and of course 1v1.

If used at the right time, and you are fast, not only do they work but they give you a whole new range of attack options. There are quite a few more spin moves than are shown in that video

Gabriel [XIII]

I'm kinda interested in the spin moves that aren't shown. Can you describe them?

Well mostly its variations of the same theme, where the foot movements carry you further into or away from the enemy, or lower percentage shots that are much more complex.

Hard to describe - Ill put together a video this week and post it with some of the different variations, as well as practical applications of them.

Again, I am noting that they are maybe not useful for a game where someone can shield bash you, but Ill see in september at equinox.

Agreed, there was a lot to examine in the sparring matches before the tutorial. I will keep watching.

Nightfall, I'm glad that you didn't take my post as any kind of insult, it certianly wasn't meant that way. I hadn't thought of the shield checking, I noticed the little 'bumps' done to the opponent's shield. In situations where those spins could be executed, you could probably keep the immediate distance needed to pull them off.

No offense taken. I really dont see the need. Everyone has thier own opinions, and I see no need to take offense if someone does not like my opinion. I am not trying to force others to my point of view. I know a great fighter who doesn't think spin shots are practical, he uses other methods, and he is great. That doesn't mean that they dont work in the hands of a fighter who is also great and practices them. They just aren't for him.

Also we are talking about 2 different games with different elements. Shield bashing may render half of my shots useless *shrug* I am sure that shield bashing may allow me even more capabilities with different shots, something I will have to play around with.

Having some posting problems here

My little band has a wide range of spin shots on a different variation from person to person. Little blake is super fast with long arms but is 5'10" where matt is 6'6" and is also skinny, but he is a really long fighter. Thier two fighting methods use the same type of spins but they use them different and execute them different. Same shot looks completely different between them because of the nature of thier own style and how they use it.

We also have come up with some half spin fakes, as well as some spin combos and really intricate foot movements. Some of these they probably wont let me show you on video but you will more than likely see them do it at Equinox this year if nothing drastic happens and we dont make it.

Ill post a video with the different variations of the normal spins at least as well as some situations that they are practical to be used in. I gotta make it this week so give me time.

Thanks!

When we get to EQ, let's fight. I've been doing this for 13 years now. I've learned everything from feast and event coordination to sewing and some leatherworking. I am the leader of a Unit that I care about a great deal, and sometimes fighting gets down pretty low on my priority list. I owe it to them to raise my game up a notch.

If you want to fight, I'll try to pull out all of my tricks to make it worth your while!

Nightfall wrote:Most of it is about footwork and body movement, not just the sword swing.

Nail on the head.

Hey Izzy, lemme know when you guys are doing this. I for sure want to be apart of this.

Xaio, no problem. I'd love to fight you too! I have a great deal of respect for you and your superb skill. I'll gladly meet you on or off the field at EQ or 'Fest.

What days will you be there?

Sure thing Izareth. I will probably be a bit out of my element with the extra contact and all, but my boys and I are practicing bel rules so it will be interesting to see what we come up with being so far away from the core of belegarth.

I am sure there may be a few interesting suprises on both sides

Well, realizing that a lot of the Amt guys who do these moves regularly makes me want to come to EQ even more. So I'll add another tally mark to the EQ side of my EQ/Okfest chart.

I personally have watched that video multiple times, and I can do many of the moves there. The 512, or Reverse Spin, works the best for me, and is one of my favorite shots to throw. The straight spin (a favorite of Attila's, in fact) is something I can only do on occasion, though that may be because I was the one to show it to everyone in my unit, and they can now see it coming a mile away; at Ragnarok, I was able to get a key hit with it on several occasions, but then again there were a TON of <6-12 months experience fighters there, so that may not be doing them justice.

Winfang is definitely right, though--those moves DO work in a Belegarth context, even with edged swords rather than beatsticks. I use a sword most of the time, and my favorite sword (which just broke recently, I think because of the way I built the handle) weighs at least 18 ounces AND moves almost as fast as an Amtgard 6oz TurboClub, due to superior counterweighting. But even with heavier, less well-balanced swords, most of those moves are doable, though sometimes you need to put a little extra effort in to generate force sufficient for people to take your hits.

As far as shield kicks go, Attila and Soth (at Rag) demonstrated, when I was sparring with them and watching them spar each other, that you can in fact combine shield kicks with spin moves, to devastating effect if your opponent isn't expecting it. I'm still playing around with this combo, but I think I might be able to use it.

Building off the techniques shown in this video, I've also come up with some spin fakes and spin combos, which I think are similar to what Nightfall is talking about. Most of them I have concentrated on when I fight with a flail (rather than doing the same fishing-rod-style shoulder-pops that a lot of flail users do, I prefer a more dynamic style that involves a lot of circular movement and redirection, which has worked pretty well for me--I killed Shadow in two swings in a straight-up 1 on 1, though because I was using a flail, I'm not too proud of myself), but some of them I like to bring out when fighting with a sword.

If I get to Equinox, I would love to spend some time sparring with veterans, which I rarely get to do (being in Philly, and being one of the veterans here with my *5 years* of experience) and to see how I can improve my fighting techniques with advice from people who've been doing this kind of fighting longer.

Well, realizing that a lot of the Amt guys who do these moves regularly makes me want to come to EQ even more. So I'll add another tally mark to the EQ side of my EQ/Okfest chart.

Actually percentage wise there are not a whole lot of people who have added these shots or type of fighting into thier style. It is common to see amongst certain groups, but I wouldn't say spins are a part of the style of more than maybe 10% of the population.

Winfang is definitely right, though--those moves DO work in a Belegarth context, even with edged swords rather than beatsticks. I use a sword most of the time, and my favorite sword ... weighs at least 18 ounces AND moves almost as fast as an Amtgard 6oz TurboClub, due to superior counterweighting. But even with heavier, less well-balanced swords, most of those moves are doable, though sometimes you need to put a little extra effort in to generate force sufficient for people to take your hits.

I use probably a 16 oz weapon, this is a guess, as I have not actually weighed my weapon cause it is unnecessary out here. But I actually don't counterbalance it at all. In fact I put as much of the weight as I can in the very tip of the weapon. For the 512 and the other spins for that matter, it really helps the power and the overextended wrap to have a tip heavy weapon. If you swing it right you can combo just as well as a counterweighted weapon, and I seem to be able to block better with my weight in the tip.

As far as shield kicks go, Attila and Soth (at Rag) demonstrated, when I was sparring with them and watching them spar each other, that you can in fact combine shield kicks with spin moves, to devastating effect if your opponent isn't expecting it.

I am really interested in this. I dont know how much force you are allowed to put into a shield kick, but this sounds so fun, I cant wait to get to EQ to see it in action.

I prefer a more dynamic style that involves a lot of circular movement and redirection, which has worked pretty well for me

I know this was directed toward flails, but I use the same theory with sword combat. Because my weapon is tip heavy I use a lot of circular motion rather than pop/fishing in my swings and combos.

If I get to Equinox, I would love to spend some time sparring with veterans, which I rarely get to do (being in Philly, and being one of the veterans here with my *5 years* of experience) and to see how I can improve my fighting techniques with advice from people who've been doing this kind of fighting longer.

I have only been playing for 10 years, and I wouldn't consider myself a "badass". I just have a different style that people aren't used to that is built on mobility, and spins have a lot in that arena, so I use them decently often, so I am really practiced with them and know when to throw them. That said, I can't wait to get to EQ to see how I do, and see a new perspective on fighting that involves a lot more contact.

Man these boards are having some serious issues. I keep getting page can not be displayed when posting and viewing threads

I got a chance to play with some Amtgard fighters from Rising Winds(Juicy, Bells, Razor, Obie, etc), last weekend at Origins. They where a good group of guys and Edhellen fighters enjoyed hanging out with them. We sparred with their weapons/shields and then with our weapons and shields. Not many of them spun like you see in the video. I believe it was only Obie, who was orginally from Colorado, that employed the spins similar to what is in the video. They where shocked by our weapon weights (unmodified Edhellen long broads and our plywood/techply shields).

Yea, I know that a lot of fighters know spins, but I really think about only 10% of the population if that many use them as a standard part of thier style.

I am not suprised about the shock about the equipment weights. Many people who pick up my weapon are usually suprised, I would not be suprised if it is lighter than a lot of belegarth weapons, but it is considered heavy to much of amt.

The shield weights however are going to be interesting. I know for a fact that I will have to get used to it again. I use a snowdisk with blue/couch foam combinations. It isn't as light as the common foam core shield in amtgard, but it is nothing like my old wooden one I used back in 1998.

I have a feeling that my spins will have to be altered slightly for the weight of the shield carrying me through the spin with its mass.

I may have to go through here and try to find a non-wooden method for making a lighter shield that wont "taco", cause my snow disc does (but it is soft plastic so it wont crack being touched edge to edge).

I have a feeling I am going to have a lot of fun in september.

Yeah, I'm sure spins are to Amtgard what bashes and kicks are to Belegarth. Everyone talks big about them but they happen with less frequency than you would think.

Hehe, until I show up at practice.

A while back Pryderi of House Hellhamme shield-kicked me into oblivion. I flew about 10 feet before skidding 10 feet more. That was my first real shield-kick. Good times. Good times.

Yeah, I'm pretty inexperienced in just about every area of Dag/Bel, but I've found that some of my moves developed in the backwoods of Albion are actually slighty unrefined versions of moves veterans of foam-fighting regularly use. Granted, I'll still get pwned at the events.

Hey, Nightfall, thanks for your reply. I really like talking about fighting (though not as much as I like doing it) and it's great to see some discussion on the topic, particularly in an area I am striving to improve in.

With regards to shield weights, this is the source of a little bit of controversy in the game (both Bel and Dag) as the all-foam shield has become more and more prevalent. In this game, however, rather than the round strap shields that Amtgard fighters seem to favor (and why is that, may I ask?) people are making and using foam-core tower shields with punch grips, perhaps because of the prevalence of flails on our battlefields. I mean, I have a tower-punch too, but I only use it in big battles with lots of archers, when my spear-wielding teammates need the extra cover; usually I use either a small round punch or a hip-height, roughly rectangular shield, because the difference in protection is MORE than made up for by the huge increase in mobility when going down to a smaller, lighter shield.

A lot of people think that these lighter shields should have some sort of penalty, like being broken on one red hit rather than two; that would certainly see an upsurge in the use of wood-cored shields. I myself want to get back into using a strap shield, as I have not done so in a while, and I miss the superior shieldbashing and edge-punching capabilities; maybe I'll have one done by Equinox, assuming I can get down there (Rugby may have to take precedence, unfortunately).

I noticed something interesting in a video someone posted (on another board) from Ragnarok (find it here)

About halfway through, you see two guys sparring (Jordon and Dac, apparently) and doing exactly the same stuff that is shown in the Sword and Board video, with more or less the same equipment (the swords are edged rather than round, but the shields are saucer-sled core), and all of their stuff is Dag (and Bel, I imagine) legal.

And the rest of the video shows you how effective people who fight that way can be on the field, as well as giving you a good idea of the shield sizes out there, and how effective shield kicks can be (Ixous, the guy who does most of them, is particularly good with them....except when he fights against me, for some reason, at which point he seems to decide that he's not as good as me and starts losing, which confuses yours truly to no end as you can clearly see how skilled he is).

Interesting point about tip-heavy swords; I of course take advantage of this quality in my flail moves (though I may be giving up flails more or less for good in a few months...not enough variety) but I would be interested to see you do it with a sword. Most of the people I know who use heavy weapons just bash with them; using the momentum to gain speed instead of power would, I imagine, be more interesting to watch.

Argh, it's really late, I need to get up early tomorrow. I hope this discussion continues in the same productive vein!

While I'm not trying to argue the skill of those individuals, as I've never spared them myself, I do question why they post videos of themselves fighting less-then-skilled fighters. Here is their link to their Wolfpack video:
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fusea ... 824319&n=2

As for shields, a good number of the highly skilled technical fighters in Belegarth use strap shields and swords, with most of those shields are heaters or rounds. The heater shield typically measure 28" wide by 32" long, I think. The average weight of a techply shield is about 6-7lbs and plywood is 9-12lbs. The fighters that use punch shields, with the most common punch being a 2'x3' weighing in around 4lbs, typically fight with flails. In my opinion these people, in general, lack the technical skill that can be found in strapped shield fighters. Punch shield fighters can be just as effective in mass melee as their strapped counter-parts, but because of their shield and weapon choice don't display a lot of technical prowess.

Also, punch shields are typically cheaper then a strapped shield and easier to make then a strapped. I feel that is the real reason for their massive prevalence on the field and not because of the flail. The Ohio groups, Granifar in particular who was one of the major people responsible for the direction that both Dag and Bel fighting field has taken, refined the punch shield around Ragnarok 14. We did not start using them because of flails; we started using them because it cost about $20 for a punch, kickboard and PVC, and about $80 for a strap shield.

Breaking my response up into subjects due to length.

Foam core shields

Much of Amtgard that I know (which is really only a small part of the texas groups) have moved to foam core shields. There are still a ton who favor the snow disc core, but more and more are adopteing the foam core. Reason, it is much lighter, and as you said mobility with lighter shield makes up for the lack of a tower.

They didn't change the size of the shield though, they are still using 26-28 inch diameter shields, so they just traded for a lighter shield. I personally hate them, not because they are cheezy or anything, but because they aren't solid. My sword bends them and knocks them away and allows me to blow through their defense at the edge of thier shield to still score a hit, something that wouldn't have happened with a disc core. They have to overblock more with the foam core, which to me, takes away the extra advantage of mobility they gained. This is especially true against the typical polearm fighter in amtgard with 8ft slash/stab legal poles that have 2"-2.5" bamboo cores that hit like a mack truck. To me, the foam core shields have a built in disadvantage, no need to make them easier to break in my honest opinion.

I am not the typical - lighter is better - fighter. But I also don't care if others use light stuff, Ill do my best to kill them anyway.

Punch vs Strap shields

As far as perfering strap shields to punch shields, I think that is kinda based on where you are from and what you typically see. Most texas is strap fighters, we dont see many flails, though I am not sure what part flails have to play other than they are maybe easier to deceive and block against with a punch. I think we have a lot of straps because it is "classic" to our game and there are a LOT of polearms. A strap shield is better able to handle the heavy hits (Without overblocking) and keep your defense solid.

I would wager that if we had less poles here, we may have more punch fighters too. That said, it has also been a trend of some to say, punch shield is the more advanced fighting style. I don't know if I am in agreement with that, though I do admit it is harder for me personally to do, so I don't disagree either. My animosity toward them is because I dont like foam core shields, and so the punch shields I have made are heavy, and a lot less maneuverable than my equivalent weight strap, because it is strapped to me. I may not be giving them due credit. They just aren't for me.

Punch shields do have their advantages over strap shields, mobility is one, you can move the shield to further reaches of your body with one. I do have a 14 inch round center grip shield (historically called a buckler) that I use a lot that is really light and strong that I love to death, which given certain situations, allows me to do things that I can not with my 26" strap. There are some crazy blocks available with a punch, great arrow defense, and great for deflecting stab-only spears. Great backup shields as well.

I personally just think that my cored strap shield is more practical than a foam core or center grip shield, and I really like the way it feels when it is hit, it is solid, unmoving, it feels like it is protecting me.

Other

I will have to watch the video you linked later today. Also, I will be bringing my snow disc shield as well as a wooden one in case they dont want to let me use my disc because of tacoing or whatever. It is interesting that it has been used in bel before however.

Interesting point about tip-heavy swords; ....snip..... but I would be interested to see you do it with a sword. Most of the people I know who use heavy weapons just bash with them; using the momentum to gain speed instead of power would, I imagine, be more interesting to watch.

I am getting an ounce scale today and Ill measure my weapon up. But I suspect it is 12 to 16 ounces. I know it is 40 inches long, with a 12 inch grip I think (not including the pommel), and most of the weight is in the tip, for power and speed once it gets spun up into circular motion, it also has amazing wrap shot power. There are a lot of ways to swing weapons, I do not go for chops like many heavy weapon fighters. I use my elbow and upper arm only to start the swing and add the speed/power, then I just let the momentum take over and use my forearm and wrist to do the rest, relaxing my elbow and upper arm in as much as to only use them to help direct movement and control distance.

I do get tennis elbow a lot from all of the torque it creates, as well as all the distance stabbing I do which has the side effect of me locking my elbow (bad habit) to squeze out every bit of range, but at the same time takes a powerful weapon and uses it for finesse and power rather than just brute strength.

Ill finish my video this weekend and hopefully it will show you, cause it is hard to describe I think.

I love fighting, love to talk about it, love to do it.

Winfang, a lot of the fights he was having were with people who seemed to have good garb and good looking equipment. Excepting the last guy, who was characterized as a newb. He may have just not known who to attack or what to look for.

All of our standards are Unit based, not based on recognizable symbols, so maybe he thought those were the cream of the crop.

I wonder if he stopped to help the newb out with suggestions.

Anyway, just thought I'd weigh-in. Fr all I know, they were all trash talking Amtguard.

Winfang, I agree that their sparring in the Wolfpack video isn't all that impressive. I was referring mostly to the ~20 seconds of sparring from their Rag video that showcases the moves shown in the Amtgard video. And, yeah, very few people are the ultimate badasses they think they are, but these guys are pretty good, and they use snow disk shields to boot. That's what I was trying to get across.

More to follow.

I tried using a one of the saucer sleds when I was sparing the Amtgard fighters at Origins. I'm use to tucking my shoulder into my shield. When I did with their shield I couldn't dip the shield down fast enough to keep Angmarth from hitting my leg because my shoulder kept getting stuck on the lip of the shield. I will admit it made my shoulder alot harder to tag though.

Which gets me thinking. Almost all the Amtgard fighters that I've spared against it seems that they don't attack the leg and don't try to block the leg as much as we do in Belegarth. The bottom point on my heater shield gets a lot of action because of this, and I'm going to have to replace it soon.

that and the fact the you use it to hit with.

it's funny you mention the fact that they fight like the video. I fight with these guys almost every week and as a somewhat newish person, I've always been enthralled with the way they can make their shots seem to come from anywhere and everywhere you're not expecting. Anyways, it's funny you say they fight like that cause when I was watching the movie, I was like, 'dude, that's almost exactly like Ixous and Dac fight.' It's very showboaty and all about tryin to out wit and out flourish your opponents.

That's all I gots to say about that. But anyways, see if you can get that movie up soon, I love learnin how to be a better fighter than I am.

Later

The reason that most seasoned Amtgarders don't go for leg shots often (as openers at least) is because in Amtgard, when your leg is hit, your dead knee must be touching the ground. This allows the player with the dead leg to post it up front creating a shield of sorts. Hitting your opponent in the leg can cause them to "turtle" up, putting their shield and dead leg up front and closing off many shots since there's nothing in the Amtgard rules about keeping the non-injured leg up.

Consequently, most fighters concentrate on kill shots that land on the hips, or above. Shields that cover your leg aren't essential because most experienced fighters don't go for legs. That's why round shields are the norm, as far as I know.

I hope that made sense.

Kit I assume that shields are also unbreakable?

From what i remember shields were breakable, but there was so very few shield breakers and a sheild breaker is considered slow in compairison to how many fight, so you might get 1 shot off before you died. And with the lack of shield bashes, checks, or shield pushing, a leged fighter has more defence options than one who is mobile.

Normally during ditch battles, which are basically like our melees except with no armor or missiles, shields are unbreakable. When doing battlegames, i.e., participants using the specific classes and levels, shields can be broken.

Please note that I'm referencing Amtgard rules before they underwent a major rules revision and it's been a while...

Red weapons could break shields with three hits.

A couple of ways that I thought were pretty cool for breaking shields were the flame arrow and the penetration arrow. If a flame arrow struck a shield, the fighter had to stamp his shield 5 times in 5 seconds or else the shield was destroyed. Penetration arrows would destroy shields outright unless they were hardened or magically protected (Shield of Reflection rocks!!!) and go through armor. Normal arrows would inflict a certain amount of point damage and armor could soak that damage.

and don't forget magic missile!!

but seriously, you're right about that three hits thing though.

I got one of those red Wham-o brand snow discs from walmart and it doesn't taco

Nightfall wrote:Punch vs Strap shields
Most texas is strap fighters, we dont see many flails, though I am not sure what part flails have to play other than they are maybe easier to deceive and block against with a punch.

actually, if you have a sled-core round (like me) i find that the curve is very good for blocking flails because it tends to deflect the shot so that even if it is only partially blocked, the shot is usually too light.