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 Post subject: Flourentine moves/attacks/defenses
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:36 pm 
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Greetings all here and thanks to Kyrian for allowing me acess to this forum. I have been fighting for two years and have been using flourentine the majority of that time. I feel I am a decent/average warrior but I would like to be better and thus I would like to know if any can give me help with different flourentine moves,attacks,and defenses against all styles and particularly shields and large weapons likes spears,glaives,and big reds.


Also,if I could get some tips,perhaps on a good stance(s)-aggressive and defensive for a flourentiner as well as ways to improve my footwork/agility,and quickness that would be much appeciated and I would be very grateful.

Varda bless you all and the stars shine on your paths,
Lady Elestirne

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 9:48 pm 
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I'd like to hear about this too, as I hope to go Dual Axes someday.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:08 pm 
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If you've been fighting for 2 years, you probably know more then me. So, I'll probably be stating the obvious.

But, you want to keep the least body area facing the opponent. And the quick two-shot hits is what you always try to achieve, it's better to learn these so you don't have to worry about when you face an armored opponent.

I've seen a lot of spins from florentiners, but not many fight like this in my realm. Plus, I'm usually sword/board or rocks.

There are a lot of combos, but I don't know how to really explain them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:19 am 
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http://www.geddon.org/index.php/Florentine

Against any type of large weapon, you basically have to get in past the length of it. This applies especially against spears and glaives. I normally use one weapon to sweep the weapon away from me while stepping in past the striking surface and then follow up with the other weapon. Be careful about leaving a gap in the center of your torso between the two weapons. This screams "target" especially to spears. Also, even if you manage to block the weapon down, you may end up driving the spear into your groin or into one of your legs.

Against a two-handed sword, you have to be aware that a very effective retreating shot for a red is to swing one-handed at a leg while attempting to back away. Have one of your weapons ready to cover your legs as you rush in.

In my opinion, fighting against other florentiners is probably the toughest of the bunch since they have the same attack capabilities as you do. Odds are, you're going to get hit along the way. Arm hunting can be effective against florentiners but be prepared to receive the same shot. If you've ever seen a tourney where both opponents are skilled at florentine, you usually end up with a lot of simos.

Beware of archers. I'll be honest. As an archer, if I see a florentiner on the battlefield, I'll be keeping an eye out for you. While some people have bucklers or back shields, many do not and you can't swing at the arrows with your weapons.

There are a few ways I block when fighting florentine. One is to pivot at the shoulder in the vertical plane using the pommel and blade as blocking surfaces while keeping the sword tip pointing towards the sky. I use this mostly for any shoulder attacks or attacks to the hips or torso. Then there's swinging the weapon down while pivoting at the elbow and wrist so that the sword tip is pointing downward. This is effective against low leg shots. Pivoting the elbow on the horizontal plane helps with the sword pointing towards the sky is good against against outside flail shots, wraps, and shots toward the center of the body.

Lady Elestirne, I should be at the Loderia mini-event. I would be happy to give you some tips there.

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Last edited by Kyrian on Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:51 pm 
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I fight florentine all the time. The best thing to do when fighting a sword and board is to use the "Scissors" move*. Stand facing your opponent head on. Swing both weapons at the same time at opposite sides of the shield, most people don't have a shield wide enough to block both shots. Usually I end up getting weapon arm. So they have to drop their shield and switch hands. Before they can switch hands hit them again.

Remember: keep swinging and after the initial scissors move get in close and kill them before they can kill you.

At 280lbs I am a florintine god. :D

*scissors works best with flails.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:15 pm 
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I've been working on my two-sword fighting lately, and what's been working for me is not letting up once I start. Especially against shieldmen. It'll take a lot out of you, though, so build up your endurance on this one. I've been working with a pair of ~15" long blade/6" long grip swords. I'd imagine it's a little different with longer weapons.

First thing you'll notice squaring off against a shield fighter is that there are no obvious openings. You have to go for the shots that may happen in the next second or two. Shoot out shots rapidly and randomly along the shield edges both high and low. It'll make that shield hike up a little and start obstructing the shield fighter's vision. If you can read footwork and/or shoulder positioning, you may get a sense of where their shot may be coming from, so I try to bite for that, either hitting the weapon arm or supressing their attack as I move in closer. Hitting on random sides like that also might cause the shield fighter to reach the shield too far and open up.

Once you're inside, start wrapping shots behind the shield. If you can, push the lower, weapon side shield corner with your foot to expose their back a little.

Be ready to have to switch from offense to defense and back quickly. Sometimes I'll put up a block even if nothing's coming, just in case, based on a hunch. Just don't back down and don't get stuck in defensive mode.

Also, use both hands all the time. If you're blocking with one, try to be striking the opponent's weapon arm with the other.

Anyway, that's my approach to it. A kind of mix between boxing and drumming. If anything, I've been told I've made someone's hand throb from the vibration through their punch shield handle.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:20 pm 
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I thank all who have replied thus far for thier advice-all of it is good,to my knowledge and I'll try to remember some for my practice tomorrow. Generally,it is easier for me to learn by being shown and walked through the moves/attacks/defenses than merely told them. If any of you will be at the Loderian mini feel free to track me down(ask for me by name of any Loderian at Troll or Weapons check and they will definetly be able to point me out) and show me some of what you speak of here if you wish,as well as fight me,since I also learn from experience.

I've not met you yet Kyrian but I would be glad to talk with you at the mini and hear any tips/advice you'd have for me. Be sure to ask for me-any Loderian can point me out.

Please continue to post advice regarding florentine moves/attacks/defenses here and I'd be grateful if any could give advice/tips for footwork/agility and moving quicker.


And to set it straight now my name is Elestirne ,not Elistirne. E-l-e-s-t-i-r-n-e

Varda bless,
Lady Elestirne

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:41 am 
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Elfie,

A great way of learning flourentine is to get very aquainted with your dominant hand. I would suggest working a single sword for a lot of sparring matches, it will increase the speed of the majority of your shots.

When you add the second sword, blocks with it will come easier than when you had a single sword, and a few trick shots with your off hand will be easy to include to your regular attacks.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:49 am 
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As a florentine fighter, you are specifically suited for attack. You do not have as much defense as a shield fighter, and though you can make a strong defense, this is not what your style excells at. Florentine is about attack, aggression.

That said, a lot of people are covering attack, but what will keep you alive and killing is defense. But I just said you are not built for defense, so I will note some of the basic fighting principles that florentine fighters must excell at to be good killers AND good survivers. These princlples are for any fighter, but as someone without a shield, these apply to you much more than a shield man, though a truly good shieldman will follow the principles as well, if not a bit more loosely.

----------

Mindful that you are an attack heavy fighter, and aggression is your ally, you must remember that when you are being attacked, you are at the disadvantage, and for you one of the best defenses is a good offense. If they can not swing because they are too busy blocking, you have the advantage.

----

3 Defensive Rules

These are to be followed in order, and it takes considerable experience to know which one you will use at what time. This is something that can only come through experience and training, but knowing what to learn is helpful, and you must think on this.

1) If the shot will not hit you, do not react.
2) If the shot will hit you, dodge.
3) If the shot will hit you and you can not avoid it, block.

On 1. By react, I mean move or block. This allows you complete freedom and control of your actions. Any other way is allowing your opponent to control you. If your opponent will not hit you with his strike, and you do not react, your weapons and body are completely free to make a counter attack to kill or put your opponent on the defensive.

On 2. Dodging means moving your body without blocking. Many young fighters get locked into dodging back and away from the opponent. This is not the best way. Latteral movement, side to side, and at angles is the best method, as it keeps you near your target and in range of your own attacks.

You must learn to dodge in such a way as to allow you for a successful counter attack.

This allows your weapons to stay ready for a strike, keeping them from being tied up by an unnecessary block but you in range to strike back. You have complete control over your weapons, and you have given little control to your opponent over yourself. You have taken control of his attack and may return the attack freely to put him on defense.

On 3. You must block in such a way that it allows you a counter attack. This can be done several ways. One way is a strong block near your hand on your handle, allowing you a really solid block that allows you to counter attack with either a wrap shot around thier blade, or a quick slash that moves thier sword and wounds them at the same time. Another way is to parry the enemy strike away from you but allow them to keep thier forward momentum which will keep them from recovering to thier defense quickly and allow you to cut them.

Remember When you block you have given your enemy control over your weapons movements for the moment. the above methods for returning the momentary attack of your enemy into a defense is important. IE Do not block only to stop a strike. You must have a dual purpose to return an attack.

These 3 rules are supposed to be followed in order. There are exceptions to the order and 2&3 may be combined many times and many ways. This is a basic order for learning.

-----

On offense.

Having 2 weapons gives you significant advantage on a single armed opponent, even shield men. learning to attack with your off hand strongly is important, as well as learning "Baiting" and Feinting both with your footwork (body movement and foot movement) as well as your weapons.

Throwing a quick feint toward the enemies shield side shoulder with your right hand while using your left hand to hit the lower sword side hip a split second later is a good weapon fake and often you can hit with both swings though the intention of the first was a fake.

Many people seek arm shots against you (as was mentioned above this by another poster as a good way to kill florentiners). Use this to your advantage by throwing fake mini shots that aren't even full shots to bait them into swinging at your arm. Use that moment to dodge thier shot or block it with one weapon while slicing thier arm off with your other weapon. This is a good example of baiting.

Moving your eyes and head movements, as well as your body toward an opponents right side while actually striking the left is a body fake that all too many people fall for. Thier senses scream to block thier right side because they see your body, eyes and head all aiming at it. It is a good ruse.

Having two weapons gives you massive ability at feinting and baiting, as well as massive block and counter attack capabilities. Combos are your forte and should be explored, remembering not to leave your defensive movements and theories out of mind in an all out berserker flury of blows, leaving you prone to a stab or inside slash.

Above all remember variety of swings, the defensive methods, and above all else, footwork.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:44 pm 
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I appreciate all the help and ask everyone to continue supplying advice-especially with footwork and good flourentine exercises/moves

Varda bless

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:08 am 
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The best thing you can do as a florentiner is get off the web and to a local battle or practice. Find the best florintiner there. Ask him/her to teach you the basics, simple shots and any theory behind the fighting style. (As Nightfall contributed.) People will most likely show you what you want to know.

Always keep your weapons in the attack position. Throw the majority of your shots at the weapon side of the shield. Throw the odd shot at the shield side to keep them on their toes. (Perhaps every third shot) Keep your legs back and lean slightly forward. Do not get stuck in a line. As florintine your best shot at staying alive is flanking.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:32 pm 
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Faolan wrote:
I fight florentine all the time. The best thing to do when fighting a sword and board is to use the "Scissors" move*. Stand facing your opponent head on. Swing both weapons at the same time at opposite sides of the shield, most people don't have a shield wide enough to block both shots. Usually I end up getting weapon arm. So they have to drop their shield and switch hands. Before they can switch hands hit them again.

Remember: keep swinging and after the initial scissors move get in close and kill them before they can kill you.

At 280lbs I am a florintine god. :D

*scissors works best with flails.


I could not disagree more. This is a DUMB move. Here is why:

Throw the scissors, do it. Watch what your head does. Your gonna lean forward with your body, your gonna extend out your arms for more reach, and in doing all this your gonna throw your head forward. Your gonna throw your head right where your chest was. If I try to counter swing, about 1/3-1/2 of the area that I can hit will be your head. And since you duct into it, I"m gonna smile and move on.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 2:47 pm 
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Not to mention you look like an idiot when you do the scissors. (though I don't know if what jim said is true)

I've been trying a bit of flourintine lately, mostly to build up my aggressiveness on the field, and rather than doing the scissors move, i prefer to tease with the offhand until they swing then go for the arm, or hit low and left with one, and then immediately after hit high and right with the other(note:two different swings, not just an angled scissors)

Not to say that I am any good at it yet though, so don't take my advice to heart.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:30 pm 
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I'm not a fan of the scissors when florentining. To me, it generally leaves me with no effective defense. If someone tries to scissor me and I'm fighting florentine, I will typically use my pommels or blades to intercept both shots. If I'm fighting sword and board, I'll use my sword to block the weapon coming in on my right.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:30 pm 
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If you're going to swing both weapons at once, make it so that it's not easy to block them both; a normal scissors can be blocked completely by a well-placed shield and a shift of stance. Send one high and one low, or one horizontal and one vertical/diagonal. Make them work for the block. Also realize that it's going to leave you wide open to a counter-stroke, unless you're really quick on the recovery.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:06 pm 
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When fighting against a shielded person:

The good ole fake with the left hand to make them think you're going for their sword arm (assuming they are a righty) and when they move their shield a little to block your left shot, the real shot comes down in from the right hand, right on their left shoulder.

Florentine is all about deception if you ask me, faking with either hand to open up the real shot you wanna get.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:18 pm 
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Scisscors on the other hand is a very useful kamakazi attack. During team battles you can at least injure a vet. Generally the idea is to use the scissors at the edge of your striking distance. Bounce your weapons back and step in and hit their sides or back. Keep swinging until you get killed or until they die. If you suprise your opponent with the speed and ferocity of your attack they might not get a chance to swing back.

Granted, alternating the high-low swings are also important for regular fighting. Pommel blocking is your friend.

(You could always cast Windmill of Doom.)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:41 am 
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Faolan wrote:
Scisscors on the other hand is a very useful kamakazi attack. During team battles you can at least injure a vet. Generally the idea is to use the scissors at the edge of your striking distance. Bounce your weapons back and step in and hit their sides or back. Keep swinging until you get killed or until they die. If you suprise your opponent with the speed and ferocity of your attack they might not get a chance to swing back.

Granted, alternating the high-low swings are also important for regular fighting. Pommel blocking is your friend.

(You could always cast Windmill of Doom.)


And I repeat, that if they DO swing back, there is a good chance they clean you right down the middle of your skull.

I can't stress this enough, because this is in like the top 3 things that I see vets blow up a newbs over. Don't put your head in a position that gets swung at. If you move your head in the path of my strike (which I know you didn't recommend here, and is commonly refered to as "head boxing") I'm gonna try to power my swing through that much harder. Especially if I think it's intentional. If someone blocks your shots with thier head, swing harder.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 6:22 am 
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I wouldn't attempt to "power through" someone's head unless they were repeatedly doing it, and I usually swing hard enough to discourage them from doing it again after the first one, if that's what they were intending. I hate hitting people in the head though, especially newer guys, if they take a few hard head hits in their first few weeks of fighting, they might stop coming out..

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:04 am 
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Jimmy, I have never that problem with the scissors move. Never had a head shot while doing it. I respect your opinion. So I say at least try it.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:07 am 
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Big Jimmy wrote:
If someone blocks your shots with thier head, swing harder.


yea....i know it is very frustrating when someone cheats or is just plain stupid....but that is not good advice to give

work with them to get them to realize what theyre doing....then help them change it

and THEN if that doesnt work Whack the F*ck out of their face

:angel:

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:36 am 
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against spears/glaives I dodge at the edge of their range until I can anticipate a jab... then I'll lunge front right while making a low cross left to lock their polearm in place... then I'll either keep one blade down on the polearm while the other swings (as I keep moving towards them, since they'll be moving back at this point) or I'll drop my left hand sword and grab their polearm shaft, as I attempt to disarm them or hit their body with my right-hand sword.

This only works well if A) the spearman isn't guarded by others, and B) the spearman isn't like Chicken (who is very good at defending himself with a back-up sword that I always forget about).

OTHER than in those circumstances, this has worked for me from time to time. I haven't had a lot of chances to do it... but I recommend trying it. If you can give me any feedback on how to improve this, that'd be cool too.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:26 pm 
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I love it when people forget about the backup weapon :).

On the scissor-move thing, speaking as a shieldman, usually when someone does that to me they're both throw-away shots that I can block by barely moving, if at all. Half the time I can block them both with my shield, which is just asking to lose an arm. It's really not hard to block two centered, simultaneous attacks. It's much harder to block a series of rapidly subsequent attacks at a wide selection of targets which keep making you react without giving you a chance to properly reset yourself and draw you further and further out of position. YMMV, of course.

There's also the body mechanics side of things. If you do a scissors move you pretty much can't commit anything more than your arms to the attack, at least not without whatever you add to one sword being taken away from the other. If you attack in a rapid series you can use your whole body instead.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:22 am 
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I'd like to point out that I was kind of a jack * in this post. And Morbian just flat out proved that I was wrong, and there is a safe way to do the pincer. My bad.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:17 pm 
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nice recovery jim. i hate it when i do that, get a little uppity and bam a * kicker (like Sir Morbian or soemone esle) lays the wood to me, and i go ohhhhhhhh i see like that.
side note to defend the scissors attack just focus on getting the sword side punch block, keeping yoru shield blocking on the other side. then once the punch block is good counter stike the same arm you punch blocked. if you are a righty your hunting the left arm of the opponent just after the punch block. if you get good at this you can use the opponents weapon to help push your weapon forward by letting their weapon hit below your hand a bit.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:01 pm 
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board.
Faolan wrote:
I fight florentine all the time. The best thing to do when fighting a sword and board is to use the "Scissors" move*. Stand facing your opponent head on. Swing both weapons at the same time at opposite sides of the shield, most people don't have a shield wide enough to block both shots. Usually I end up getting weapon arm. So they have to drop their shield and switch hands. Before they can switch hands hit them again.

Remember: keep swinging and after the initial scissors move get in close and kill them before they can kill you.

At 280lbs I am a florintine god. :D

*scissors works best with flails.


im a little late on this but, I fight against an amazingly skilled flourintiner, and I find that the "scissor" theqnuiqe is the easiest move to block with sword and board, I just turn my weapon hand clockwise so the tip of the weapon is facing the ground, like this I can block my entire arm and right after a block I can strike rather quickly and powerfully so, scissors against any compitent or intelligent S&B user is almost useless, but I suppose it is good for scaring them, because honestly, when someone comes at you with a weapon at each of your sides, it gets kinda scary.


NO offense intended, jus trying give a little tip about things to watch out for when useing scissor ^.^


Tinney out

Deleted your double post--Kyrian

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:22 am 
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what I do is I use one weapon usually my weak arm and move as to bring my foes attention to that so they forget my other weapon move weak arm so they go to block and strike with my strong arm.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:50 pm 
Underling
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Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Realm: Thunder Guard
Unit: Carrion Crusade
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword or Flail and Board
I wouldn't be able to provide flourentine tips, because I rarely fight with that style, but I could mention my usual counter... I move in on them quickly, with my shield pressed into them, and make a quick, solid strike at their left side (because I'm a righty) as soon as they make an attack with their left weapon. I am in a new realm, without a whole lot of XP to go around, but that tends to work 70% of the time for a good kill shot. Otherwise, usually a very fast well placed block will stop the attack. Once and a while, the attack will be powerful enough to get through a weapon block too.

What do flourentiners use to counter a rush such as this?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:03 am 
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Me?

I'll kick your shield into you. . . or I rush back and slam into the shield, spin around your torso and drop to my knees to cut you from behind.

It works for me about 75% of the time.

Or I just dance back and go around.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:39 am 
Underling
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Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario
Realm: Thunder Guard
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword or Flail and Board
How long have you been fighting for? Whenever anybody has tried a shield kick around here, their opponent takes a leg and gets pushed back a bit. I've seen it work once, where the "kicker" lifted the shield from a punch users hands with his foot, and went in for the kill. It was impressive...
I'd like to see someone skilled in the art of shield kicking :)
As for backing up, the tactic I mentioned is executed with a few very quick steps, and the time to react is usually minimal. But, like I said... Still a new realm and a lot more XP to be earned.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:15 am 
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I kick kind of a lot, I've found that it helps to boot the shield as hard as you can into their weapon hand. Still isn't foolproof but it often stalls the weapon long enough to get your leg out of harms way.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:36 pm 
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swing to one side and in mid swing do a u turn and land it on the other side! confuses them and works 90% of the time


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:00 pm 
Barbarian
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Yell wildly and keep hitting the front of a S & B shield... works 0% of the time.

Standing still and forget about your legs... just makes you shorter.

If you are going to get up close and personal... remember you can drop a weapon, even if your not injured, and grab your opponents weapon immobilizing their ability to attack.

2cents

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