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 Post subject: Shield and Jav/Shortspear
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:42 pm 
Underling
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I was wondering after reading 300, would the shortspear and shield work well in belegarth. Of course you'd carry a back up, to not would be lunacy. But it has some nice advantages, reach and protection, plus the ability to throw it as well. Though aginst another shield user, especially if they have armor or a tower shield it'd be very ineffective. But what are everyone elses thoughts on it.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:14 pm 
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It could work as a skirmisher/flanker loadout; ideally, you'd carry a few javs either behind the shield or in a "quiver", to give you more options.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:52 pm 
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I know several people I've seen duel wield with a Javy and a Flail. That seems to be a pretty efficient combo, with a bit of reach, stabbing and the "wrap" of a flail.

It might work, I know a few people try it out every once in awhile in my realm, but it kind of sucks once the javy/short spear's head gets knocked out of the way.

I wouldn't ever make a short spear, if anything, just make a javelin.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:11 pm 
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Defiently, that way you also still have that ranged component. I wish weapons could flex more, then you could do the technique developed in china were to smack the shaft of the spear aginst the edge of the shield and since they used flexable shafts it would bend, then if you thrust you'd hit body. It'd be sweet to accomplish, but hella hard though.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 5:34 pm 
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In preparation for a demo that Rhun / Hydra are doing at a theatre for the opening of 300, I fought for three hours or so just using a shield and a javelin. It was awesome. As soon as I get my own javelin and round shield (in place of my axes/swords and tear-ish shield) that's probably all I'm going to use.

It was a little bit harder than sword and shield, but it was MUCH more fun. And if I get good at it, it will be effective. You just need to stab hard, and remember that single-green does nothing to armor.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:35 pm 
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become more offensive with your shield at deflecting attacks and force your opponent to open themselves for a thrust; don't miss your opening but be ready for them to counter and have an escape ready just in case.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:51 am 
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I don't see the benefit for close range fighting, which is kind of the point in having a shield. Not being able to slash, and only having one open hand for gripping your spear would severely limit your options to the point of comedy. I can't imagine anyone with a one handed stabbing only weapon paired with a shield being any kind of a threat in any situation. From what I've observed, javelins are useful as a shock weapon, but have very little practical use when the distances close. Particularly in this game where personal ability and finesse counts for so much.

My only question is, why choose to limit yourself?

savetuba rebuttal in 5, 4, 3, 2...

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 4:13 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:07 pm 
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Q: why choose to limit myself?
A: Because how else will I improve?

Q: Is it at all effective close range?
A: I fought all night with that in either FFA, two person regen, 4v4, or 1v1 situations. I survived about as well as I usually do. Yes, it was a small group, and yes it wasn't a national event. But I had a lot of fun, and it was notably effective, considering it was my first night fighting as such. I did a lot of leg stabbing, followed by long-distance stabs. I also used my shield considerably more than usual. The thing is.. it is much much more difficult for someone to block a stab than it is to block a swing... not only do they not see much wind-up for it, but also.... it's just difficult to block. You can't just put your sword in it's way... you need to push it out of the way with a sword.

And you feel cool. Did I mention that?


It DOES suck against someone wearing full armor. Since one-handed stabs then do nothing. That's when you get a partner.... or more javelins. Cause if you have more than one, you can through them.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:15 pm 
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not being able to stab the head seriously limits a spear's effectiveness

you will most likely get more kills with a sword

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:44 pm 
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i am a very large person in terms of roundness, and i enjoy using a jav with my teardrop.... mostly cause its fun, and the trick is that if someone gets in close and you cant leg them, you put the jav in your shield hand and draw a sword or other blue, very fun

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:34 pm 
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This is something I've really wanted to try. Have 2 Jav's and a roundsheild. Run about (since I am a flanker) and casue mayhem not only with the threat of thrown javs from the side, but being able to stab lightly armored targets, if not to kill, to immobilize. Maybe Medieum Length swords as backups. I can see a small trained team with this loadout being quite a pain in the backside

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:06 pm 
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Magpie wrote:
Q: why choose to limit myself?
A: Because how else will I improve?
I don't buy this argument for a second. The best way to seek routine improvement in whatever you do is with practice and consistency. Cross training is useful, but should always compliment, not take the place of what you want to excel in. There is something to be said for developing versatility with different styles and equipment, but you will never drastically improve in one particular area of combat if you neglect to dedicate yourself to it.

If you want to be the games best one-handed spearman, more power to you. If you think that you'll be on even turf with someone of equal skill but with better equipment (a sword?), then you're bound to be disappointed. If you just want to goof off and have fun copying what you read in a comic book or playing with a weapon you thought would be nifty, that's great. Just don't think that it will take you to the next level of your fighting game as quickly or as effectively as with a more traditional setup.

To add to the topic, I've never seen javelins in Bel used to much effect aside from the "oh ****" factor that comes from a frothing wildman chucking a piece of PVC at your head. I've found them to be slow, heavy, and easily parried.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:32 pm 
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It's cool... I know you didn't mean to pretend you know me, make stuff up, and write me off. I'll not be insulted. It's cool.

Why do you care if I enjoy jav/shield and find it to be a more natural-feeling combo for myself?

You don't have to tell me I'm a bad fighter just because the new style I'm trying out is different. I know I'm not a great fighter. I don't think it's related to my weapons though. It's more because I'm too passive of a fighter... I sit back and wait for openings, block more than I attack, and back up all the time. Oh, and I'm a skinny vegetarian.......


Oh, p.s.:

kit wrote:
I can't imagine anyone with a one handed stabbing only weapon paired with a shield being any kind of a threat in any situation


Then learn to imagine. Let's consider... a jav would outrange you in melee... it can be a ranged weapon... it can't be blocked as easily, since it doesn't have to be swung.... the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, which is what it would travel... and... most people aren't used to it. Jav/shield would be particularly bad for line fighting... but it seems adequate for skirmishing.

I'm not saying that a javelin/shield would be better than a sword/shield if the people are the same fighting ability. I know full well that sword/board is more common for a reason. But you can't pretend there's no threat involved... as I said, learn to imagine. Or not.


oh, p.p.s.

kit wrote:
Cross training is useful, but should always compliment, not take the place of what you want to excel in


I wrote:
As soon as I get my own javelin and round shield (in place of my axes/swords and tear-ish shield) that's probably all I'm going to use.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:05 am 
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My sarcasm detector is busted so I'll just assume that you're not offended since that wasn't my intent. I personally don't care what you fight with. There's no incentive to improve your ability in this game other than the personal goals you set for yourself and what you find fulfilling. ****, I don't like fighting that much, it's just something to do with friends and I like to blow off some steam by poking folks in their kidneys.

I'm pretty sure most of us here understand the fundamentals/physics of a thrust and it's one of the things that really should be more prevalent in Bel (the archaic restrictions on stabbing is a major holdup). But you can stab with a sword. You can also build a sword just as long and as comparably as light as a javelin. I think that in almost every situation, a stabbing/slashing weapon will help you kill more, quicker. I guess you understand that though, so where exactly is this discussion going?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:18 pm 
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Spartans weren't the only ones that made good use of a short spear and shield. Since you cant crank someone in the head, it's a little bit limited but I wouldn't write it off as being impaired...

You're not any more impaired than any other non 'sword board' combo.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:03 pm 
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wow, someone needs to calm down, all magpie stated is that he likes using other weapons to challenge himself.... and he is right it DOES make you better, this is because you quickly find out the weaknesses to using a combo, and when you encounter it on the field, you will know how to defeat it.

P.S. Javs are quite devastating on the front lines f you know how to use them.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:29 pm 
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Hunter S. wrote:
You're not any more impaired than any other non 'sword board' combo.
The other mainstream combinations: flourentine, polearm, and bow are viable because they have a niche functionality and have proven themselves time and time again to be effective at killing x people over y time in the hands of a semi-competent wielder. If jav and board wasn't impaired, more folks would use it.
XaLUcARDx wrote:
all magpie stated is that he likes using other weapons to challenge himself.... and he is right it DOES make you better
I said that too. My main point is that short spear and board will never be as consistently effective as sword and board because the inablity to swing is too limiting. If you want to get better, the best way to do it is by practicing with what you want to get better at. It's not rocket science.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:42 pm 
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I would venture to say that Board/Jav also has niche functionality. You have the protection of a shield and a decent reach. If you've been to any large scale wars, you'll see that a variety of people resort to jav/shield when doing a shield wall the reason being that you can catch the other shield wall unaware and plug someone in the head :P


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:43 pm 
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kit wrote:
Magpie wrote:
Q: why choose to limit myself?
A: Because how else will I improve?
I don't buy this argument for a second.

from reading his post he said it caused him to use his shield more, that is an improvement he can carry over to other board combos.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:13 pm 
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the real fallback i see w/ jav + shield v. sword + shield is that two limbs successfully hit w/ a javelin does not equal death

whereas

2 limbs w/ a sword does

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:26 pm 
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Yet two limbs successfully hit with a javelin does mean it is easier to kill the person.

I would suppose this style would be a good compliment to another fighter. you can hold your own or give support.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:14 pm 
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I know that someone else is going to find an exception, but I haven't ever seen a fellow with no arms kill someone :P I can see one arm being dangerous, but no arms?

Stickem in the leg and leave him for the archers is what I say lol.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:30 pm 
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Yeah, I've found that the style really functions optimally if there's teamwork involved.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:03 pm 
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Kudos for being different and trying something new.

But sadly, a combo as this would never fly in K-Town. Why, you ask? Because everyone here uses tower shields (except me and Grey, we use rounds most the time). So even in the event that a fighter could leg another while using javelin and shield, it would make getting the kill even harder.

But, if I were you Magpie, I would make a four foot javelin with a .5" fiberglass core, and maybe even counter-weight it so it is easier to use. PVC javelins don't do it for me.

On a historical note, just because the Spartans used spears doesn't mean that they didn't swing them. This is usually forgotten in Belegarth since we can't swing spears.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:34 pm 
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I saw designs for a greek sheild that was strapped so that you could use both hands on the javlin while weilding what is basicly a 2x4'tower shield.
I'm gonna build on anyway. I'll post my results here for y'all to fight over.
Since I'll have 2 hands on the jav, it should be more effective and I should be able to get some kills through surprise for the first few months at least.
I do agree that nothing is as all-around effective in Bel than S&B, but if that was all anybody did, I would be bored as **** with this game.
For me, it isn't about winning every fight. It's about experiencing fighting in ways people may have in acient times. Since I can't get anywhere near realistic cercumstances, I like to challenge myself in other ways, like through using limited equiptment.
It's more fun to win when you're the underdog.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:43 pm 
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I've been considering building a short spear (basically an unflexing unthrowable javelin) that had some amount of striking surface on the sides of the tip, so it could be swung It'd be mostly haft padding, though, if not all haft padding. I don't know how well it would work. It's just been floating around in my head lately.

Yeah, it sucks fighting against tower shields though. I really have to work on aggressive shield work and shield kicking at that point.

And yeah, I totally hear you about wanting to win while being the underdog... and wanting to change things up.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:11 pm 
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ioy. some people are limited to this is how everyone fights so there isn't anything better. Personally, I wouldn't be a zone 2 fighter with a jav/shield combo. I'd be a zone 1 fighter.

zone 1 would mean I'm in your face and the only shots you have are wraps and stabs. Using my shield I can block the first few shots as I move in then once I'm close enough, wrap the shield behind me to protect against wraps shots, tuck your jav arm in and push in past the NME shield for an easy stab.

Also holding the jav with the head pointed down, your hand about mid way on the shaft will give you protection from upper wraps, the ability to get in close and stab, throw it, or let it slide down for pop & jab/pop & throw.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:42 pm 
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I never thought I'd hear myself saying this, but I agree with savetuba.

To a degree.

I've fought with jav and shield before, and while limiting in some respects, in others you have multiple ways to gain the element of surprise.

Say for instance you're fighting in a line, stabbing at legs and open shields. You can pull a quick leg fake and leap backwards, tossing the jav at their face once you're back far enough (right before you land usually, depends on how good you can leap). If you happen to have a rock on you, you can toss that immediately afterwards. So if they do happen to react in time to the jav, it pelts them in the face as soon as they reset their shield.

The element of surprise is a huge thing in this sport. People get used to the same things over and over.

Who expects someone with a jav to get right in their face and start stabbing? (like in savetuba's example)

Personally I like jav and shield. It gives you almost as much reach and pinpoint accuracy as a spear, almost as much speed as a dagger, the same protection as sword and board, and it's something you don't see every day in this sport.

Also, something someone told me once. Just think of a javelin as a dagger with a really long handle, and you can throw it.

Juice out.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:01 pm 
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It's a bit off topic, but Juicer man, I have to let you know I love your avatar.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:05 pm 
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haha. me too.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2007 2:27 pm 
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I belive that shield and jav is a good combo. Like all other forms of fighting it has its downfalls but it also has its advantages. I mean, there's got to be a reason the short spear is one of the oldest and most widly used weapons in the history of warfare.

jav and sheild offer alot of things taht are similar to sword and shield. Such as the improved protection and versitility to most combat situtations. However there are some things that the jav and sheild have over the majority of sword and board players. Sword and board is one of the most common beginer fighting styles. Its easy to learn, but difficult to master. One thing i constantly see is new and moderate level players not getting the most out of their sheilds. Now i know alot of people love to parry with their swords and what not and i'm not dissing that but i see it all the time.. where they just hold there shield at their side and really do nothing with it. your shield is a tool and most ppl dont use it to its full effectiveness. With the jav/shield combo, people have a much harder time parrying attacks with their javlin. Its longer, harder to swing so blocking attacks with it is much more difficult. This forces them to use their sheild more effecivly. Another advantage is the speed in wich you can execute attacks with a short spear. If the weilder has some creativity he can be a devistating opponet to face. Keeping the enemy back and constantly attacking. When they close it, simply choke up on the javilin and continue attacking using your shield more effectivly. Its a hard nut to crack if done right.

Of course there are some major disadvantages. Such as the lack of adaptiveness to every situation. and if the enemy is wearing armor. Also a sword much more well rounded in its amount of strikes and attacks it can employ. I think that jav and shield would be a better combination for group tactics such as a shield wall rather than skirmishing situations. Probably because tehre are many better and more effective styles to use in a skirmish situation. I am however not saying it cant be done, or done effectivly.

I dont think there is anything seriously wrong or bad about the style, if someone wants to try it, great. the more rounded a person is, the more things he or she can prepare for in future battles.

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