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 Post subject: Realism
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:15 pm 
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I thought I would start a discussion by throwing out a few of my biases for discussion.

I think realism should be encouraged but not enforced beyond the existing belegarth rules.

Why:
In the early 1600's when Jamestown was established in the States, the Europeans quickly abandoned their peascod belly breastplates in favor of chain mail, which had been out of fashion for decades (if not hundreds of years). Peascod belly breastplates feature a sloped ridge down the middle designed to deflect bullets and 100 lb pull longbows. The indians were using 45 lb hunting bows and chainmail is more comfortable. They used what worked.

People have been trying for hundreds of years to make better weapons and we know the results. Crossguards work. Both zheihanders and katanas work (but require totally different fighting styles). Spears have been used effectively on the battlefield for centuries. Mitten gauntlets didn't have padding inside but touched the handle on both sides of the hand for a reason.

By the same token, there is a reason battle ready swords weigh 2-3 pounds and their decorative duplicates weigh 8. A lot of thought and effort by a lot of people went into something as "ordinary" as a sword.

If somebody wants an ultralight weapon that still has "cutting power", ask if they would like to make a hatchet point 1796 Pattern Sabre. Look at all the details like the varying width of the blade, the knucklebow and the part of the knucklebow that sticks out about an inch on the back (it was made that way intentionally) and check out the features that this "realistic" design has over a speedbat.

By the same token, if you want a crossguard that will stand up to abuse, look at how crossguards were constructed and attached to blades historically. They were constucted that way because real swords tended to break when constructed differently - the same as Belegarth swords.

There is an effective reason my heater shield weighs as much as it does.

On the other hand, I think it is silly to ask every 16 year old picking up a foam sword to be a history nut. Let them fall in love with the sport, let them try the massive padded hammers and quarterstaffs and scythes, and then show them how the little design tricks hidden in the real weapons can be translated to Belegarth.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:32 am 
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Thomas MacFinn wrote:
If somebody wants an ultralight weapon that still has "cutting power", ask if they would like to make a hatchet point 1796 Pattern Sabre. Look at all the details like the varying width of the blade, the knucklebow and the part of the knucklebow that sticks out about an inch on the back (it was made that way intentionally) and check out the features that this "realistic" design has over a speedbat.

then show them how the little design tricks hidden in the real weapons can be translated to Belegarth.


Most of the things he's mentioning, I don't see how they translate at all. Especially over a speed bat.

Since every weapon in belegarth cuts or hacks or bludgeons exactly the same, the cutting power added from the curve or hatchet edge of a saber is lost. And while their display with the back of the saber being sharpened makes their saber more effective, most single sided weapons don't make weight minimums, so most weapons even if single sided have that feature, as speed bats have it... well x infinity, being omni directional.

I understand when it comes to the knucklebow, but in all my years of fighting I can't think of a single time I've ever seen a weapon caught by a cross guard or anything similar.

I understand doing things for historical accuracy if that's your "thing." I just don't see the advantages over a speedbat that you're describing.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:00 am 
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It's just hard to do things like small, pretty, safe crossgards, basket hilts, and knucklebows when you're working within the constraints of our sport.

Realism = SCA or Live Steel.

Cheapness and Safety = Belegarth.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:29 pm 
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And speed. SCA is fast, our sport is faster. Amtgard is faster than us.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:48 am 
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Big Jimmy wrote:
Most of the things he's mentioning, I don't see how they translate at all. Especially over a speed bat.

Since every weapon in belegarth cuts or hacks or bludgeons exactly the same, the cutting power added from the curve or hatchet edge of a saber is lost. And while their display with the back of the saber being sharpened makes their saber more effective, most single sided weapons don't make weight minimums, so most weapons even if single sided have that feature, as speed bats have it... well x infinity, being omni directional.


True, but the finer points of balancing and weight distribution throught the core still carry over. A well balanced sword will trounce a speedbat or flail (aptly named "skill-on-a-stick" ad infinitum because the wielder can take advantage of the added finesse. Speedbats are more restricted; they must be made in a very specific way, ie. thin, slightly whippy, and counterbalanced out the wazoo to maximize the Mario-hammer like effects. Swords can be more nuanced; placing weight near the tip lends to power, in the handgrip to speed and finesse, in the pommel to stability. The fighter can maximize his or her own potential via the weapon; speedbats and flails don't have that option.

Thanks, Thomas.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:18 am 
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Elebrim, weight near the pommel will destabilize a weapon. Try balancing a heavily pommel-weighted sword on your hand by the pommel and then by the tip. I guarantee the tip will be easier because there's more weight near the far end.

Additionally, unless you're just mad-strong, counterweighting a sword as low as possible above the top of the hand on the grip will always increase speed, especially at the beginning of a shot thrown from stationary. I fail to see how constructing a tip-heavy sword will help you whoop a guy with a speed bat and a strap (though it may help with carry-through against a punch).

That said, I've yet to like a speed bat better than one of my own swords (counterweighted as low as I can get them without getting their weight up above 16 oz at 34-36 inches, oblong handles). The only advantage I really see is their omnidirectionality, which really is only a benefit to the struck; I see people flatted with improperly thrown crosses ALL the time and the thrower of the shot certainly doesn't know he's doing it, so he can't very well call it. *shrug*


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:37 pm 
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*Removes foot from mouth* The last sword I built had an opposite effect for me; I found I was able to control the swing more effectively with more weight in the pommel to counterbalance it properly. It might be that I'm an exception to the rule. But, that still lends to the idea that swords can cater to the individual while speedbats cannot.

And ideally, shouldn't a fighter try to master a proper wrap shot or cross instead of defaulting to a beating stick and not learn the technique? Just saying.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:43 pm 
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Elebrim, I believe I see what you're saying now. I thought by "stability" you meant that it was harder to move the sword with a solid hit, sort of thing.

Bringing the point of balance (PoB) of the sword closer to the desired pivot point (about the top edge of the hand, most of the time) makes a sword much more nimble. It becomes faster and easier to direct, which is why a lot of people really like counterweighted weapons. I, for one, can't stand an unweighted sword because I'm used to my blades.

Then again, I like the forward weight of my new flail and of my hammer; they lend themselves more to flow-fighting and fluid motions, I think (which is excellent for a heavy-head flail to do).

And you know, that I think about it, I've felt a few speedbat-type roundswords and I don't think any of them were really counterweighted, because that would have increased their weight. A properly-weighted roundsword wouldn't, I don't think, count as a speedbat. Or maybe... maybe it would count even more...

Hmm.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:19 pm 
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After reading a few comments, I think that there may be some things that can easily be overlooked, and can definitely benefit Belegrim:

1) As mentioned, proper weighting per wielder.
2) Technique (i.e. thrusting, used to both defend and deliver a response simultaneously as historically done)
3) Stance (historical stance and balance translate entirely)

There are also Belegarth specific changes that work on our fields but never would have historically:

1) Getting drum rolled by the belegarth representation of a limb (speedbat).
2) Highly mobile fighters that are tanked out (this is an historical nightmare)
3) Getting attacked by orcs... tre' cool.

I think that while Belegarth offers some specialization, history serves us well in reference.

Thanks for the reminder Thomas.

-RB

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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:27 pm 
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I realize that I may be talking about a lot of work for only very minor gains.

Overall, I think the speedbat is a great weapon for the same reasons the shillelagh, the billy club and a hundred variations of the basic club have been present as effective weapons from the time of Cain and Abel all the way to modern times: effective does not have to be complex. Speedbats are simple to make and simple to use. The only simpler weapon is a spear.

But when people want something other than the simplest weapons, when they want weapons that are more counterweighted than any speedbat or want to try curved weapons or want to put a little extra effort into making a weapon that is custom designed for the way they fight, I think it is worth taking a moment to look at what history has to show instead of "reinventing the wheel".

For example, did anybody notice that although the pattern sabre was curved that you could draw a strait line through the center of the handle out to the thrusting tip?

Big Jimmy wrote:
Since every weapon in belegarth cuts or hacks or bludgeons exactly the same ...


They do and they don't.

It is true that a good hit is a good hit according to the Belegarth rules, but (to a certain extent) this is also true with historical weapons. "Good enough" for a historical weapon is sufficient to incapacitate a human. This is the reason actual "weapon-type" picks and hammers had more in common with framing hammers or rock hammers than the stuff you see in fantasy movies.

ImageImage


Although we are all fighting under the same rules, I've had someone try to bat aside my glaive with a heavily counterweighted weapon while charging and skewer themselves on the glaive's thrusting tip when my weapon didn't budge.

This is not to say counterweighting itself is good or bad. I have an idea for a minimum weight swept-hilt rapier that I'm itching to try out. :)

Edit: I say "however" way too much.

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Last edited by Thomas MacFinn on Sat Jan 12, 2008 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:29 pm 
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Thomas MacFinn wrote:
For example, did anybody notice that although the pattern sabre was curved that you could draw a strait line through the center of the handle out to the trusting tip?


Hrm... no. I didn't.

That's.... hrm. Interesting...

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:43 pm 
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The sabre's tip is in line with its hilt for the same reason my scimitars possess the same characteristic, Thomas.

Er... I guess that's all I have to add right now?


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:35 am 
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:23 pm 
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Juicer wrote:
Just take the heavy stick and hit the squishy thing. Wash, rinse, repeat.


... if the squishy things let you.

;)


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:50 am 
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Thomas MacFinn wrote:
Juicer wrote:
Just take the heavy stick and hit the squishy thing. Wash, rinse, repeat.


... if the squishy things let you.

;)


Let me? Why I ask for permission to squish? I just squish. Or smash. Or maybe crush.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:16 am 
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Thomas MacFinn wrote:
I realize that I may be talking about a lot of work for only very minor gains.

Overall, I think the speedbat is a great weapon for the same reasons the shillelagh, the billy club and a hundred variations of the basic club have been present as effective weapons from the time of Cain and Abel all the way to modern times: effective does not have to be complex. Speedbats are simple to make and simple to use. The only simpler weapon is a spear.

But when people want something other than the simplest weapons, when they want weapons that are more counterweighted than any speedbat or want to try curved weapons or want to put a little extra effort into making a weapon that is custom designed for the way they fight, I think it is worth taking a moment to look at what history has to show instead of "reinventing the wheel".

For example, did anybody notice that although the pattern sabre was curved that you could draw a strait line through the center of the handle out to the thrusting tip?

Big Jimmy wrote:
Since every weapon in belegarth cuts or hacks or bludgeons exactly the same ...


They do and they don't.

It is true that a good hit is a good hit according to the Belegarth rules, but (to a certain extent) this is also true with historical weapons. "Good enough" for a historical weapon is sufficient to incapacitate a human. This is the reason actual "weapon-type" picks and hammers had more in common with framing hammers or rock hammers than the stuff you see in fantasy movies.

ImageImage


Although we are all fighting under the same rules, I've had someone try to bat aside my glaive with a heavily counterweighted weapon while charging and skewer themselves on the glaive's thrusting tip when my weapon didn't budge.

This is not to say counterweighting itself is good or bad. I have an idea for a minimum weight swept-hilt rapier that I'm itching to try out. :)

Edit: I say "however" way too much.



Yeah, I would agree with what you said about the I think the speedbat is a great weapon for the same reasons the shillelagh, the billy club and a hundred variations of the basic club have been present as effective weapons from the time of Cain and Abel all the way to modern times.. It's what I saw in the movies perhaps that made me think by this statement. Just my thoughts saying.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:09 am 
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Dude, did you just post in a thread three and a half YEARS dead to say "Yeah I agree horse speedbat cart battery fork"?

With some kind of bizarre misogynistic sigline?

For your FIRST POST?


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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Arrakis wrote:
Dude, did you just post in a thread three and a half YEARS dead to say "Yeah I agree horse speedbat cart battery fork"?

With some kind of bizarre misogynistic sigline?

For your FIRST POST?


/Agree with all of this

Wow...hell of a first post. And definitely, change your sig line...please. It's only going to make people hate you even more than they already do.

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 Post subject: Re: Realism
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 10:35 pm 
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