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Skill On A Stick Frustration

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:31 pm
by Forsaken
A fighter i know florentines flails. It drives me insane becuase he thinks he is indestructible because no one can touch him with a normal weapon. He swings them about wildly so its hard to get a shield into block them. So the question is: How do you defeat or even combat a florentining skill on a stick?

PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:47 pm
by okita
Practice. Block the tips on entry, get close, and smother his shots before he can get any momentum behind them. Find the shots he gets you with and learn to cover them. If you just tuck your shield under your chin and run in on people(which is way too common among Amtgarders at least) flails and proper wrapshots will obliterate you. People don't seem to realize you have to actually block with it like other weapons, but I understand that may not apply to you. If all else fails, just pick up a pole and stab the ego out of him.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:11 am
by Thomas MacFinn
Grab a pole short enough to be quick but long enough to comfortably outreach the florantine fighter. Stab him in the chest. Repeatedly.

Many fighters can block the first thrust but not the second if they come quickly. In addition, florantine style is not known for its great ability to block thrusts.

Hit or miss, you place him in the position of having to block while unable to attack which is a position no fighter wants to be in. He will probably try to rush forward into a range he is more comfortable with. Stab him before he can do that.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:35 am
by Sir_Mel
Possibly a less kind but probably more permanent solution is to get a fairly large red (Edhellen Claymore size or bigger if needed) and just full on baseball swing the bugger. You may not kill him and you may die in the process, but he will definitely be hurting and will think about picking up a shield or avoiding you altogether.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:04 am
by Thomas MacFinn
Melannen wrote:Possibly a less kind but probably more permanent solution ...


Intimidation has its place, but I'm not a big fan of any tactic that discourages my opponent from wanting to fight me again.

Re: Skill On A Stick Frustration

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:53 am
by Kyrian
Forsaken wrote:A fighter i know florentines flails. It drives me insane becuase he thinks he is indestructible because no one can touch him with a normal weapon. He swings them about wildly so its hard to get a shield into block them. So the question is: How do you defeat or even combat a florentining skill on a stick?


I beg to differ in calling a flail "skill on a stick." Granted that many of the flails used in Belegarth do not resemble their historical counterparts, i.e., most of the weight is not necessarily in the ball of the flail. However, a flail has its own set of positives and negatives just like every other weapon style out there. People tend to focus only on the increased offensive capability of a flail but they don't see the decreased defense compared to a sword or the increased recovery time. Yes, the flail can have a stiff learning curve compared to a sword but you can learn to block it effectively with practice.

With that said, my first suggestion would be to try fighting with a flail for a while. Learn the types of shots it can do and how people defend against them. You can then use this experience in better combatting the strengths of the flail.

My second suggestion would be to train on using your sword for blocking and work on blocking both weapons at the same time. Use the block to get in past the flail heads and hit the person.

My third suggestion would be to utilize missile weapons of some fashion. Either carry rocks or javelins to use against the person or bring in a support archer. He can't kill you if you're outside of his melee range.

Finally, work on counterswinging and targeting the fighter's arms. You can't swing two weapons if you only have one arm...

Hope this helps.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:16 am
by Black Cat
Dual-wielded skill-on-a-stick is no match for a good polearm.

Just do the hokey-pokey to him (or slash him if your polearm is a red) a few times and he might think about dropping one of those flails and picking up a shield for a change.

Though if he is the type of fighter I'm thinking he is based on how you have described him, it'll probably be the dreaded coreless tower punch shield that he will chose to pick up. The Uruk-Hai love those things, so I'll be able to get plenty of experience fighting against them once I am able to make it to practices. I know that this has very little to do with florentining flails, but if this guy starts using a tower punch, you're probably going to want to know how to fight against it. I don't have the answer now, but it probably won't be long before I do.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:55 am
by Forsaken
Well he is the type of fighter that thinks he knows everything. He is one of the "senior" leaders and best friends with our main "boss" guy. I tried to attack him with a javelin, and he just said it didnt hit him. I cant say anything becuase our leader will side with him and let him live. Basically they change the rules according to how they want to fight. Like with no tape on the striking surfaces, they get to cover their whole sword with tape and no cover.

Anyway, the flails he uses are long on the handles, 5 inch chain i think, and "Balls" that are larger then normal. The balls are light, so are the handles and they pretty much just bounce around. I think I will try the polearm attack. Seems like the best way around it.

Also, is anyone looking for more fighters? I can only drive 90 minutes or so away, Hoopeston Illinois, 60942. If you have any questions why I am looking or you are looking, P.M. me

Thanks
Forsaken

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:33 am
by Mercer
Have an archer shoot him in the face until it stops being funny. Flailentine cured.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:31 am
by Big King Jimmy
Mercer wrote:Have an archer shoot him in the face until it stops being funny. Flailentine cured.


That's a LOT of shots...

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:01 pm
by Mercer
The real joke is, it never stops being funny. We're gonna need some more arrows here, Joe...

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:18 pm
by Pierce
Skill on a what now? Just keep fighting flails and learn how they move.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:05 pm
by savetuba
I'd go with the spear the hell out of him and wait until spring. Then ask other groups near you to raid your group. I'm sure that once the leaders see how much of a small fish they are they will start to shape up.

Also, I had a guy that dual flailed for a while. But once there were archers and spears on the field, he did everything to avoid them.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:32 pm
by Thomas MacFinn
Pierce wrote:Skill on a what now? Just keep fighting flails and learn how they move.


I think that's an excellent idea. Until you can learn from elsewhere, ask the guy who is giving you so much problems to teach you. Ask how to build a good flail, try one out and ask questions like "how do you block with a flail?"

Even if you never develop a taste for it yourself, you will learn what a flail does well and what it does poorly.

If you think your temporary teacher is a bit of a bully, ask him to show you the maneuvers slowly or on somebody else where you can see better instead of giving him an excuse to beat on you and call it "training".

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:13 pm
by Sir_Mel
Forsaken wrote:Also, is anyone looking for more fighters? I can only drive 90 minutes or so away, Hoopeston Illinois, 60942.=



You are way down there my friend (about a 3 hour drive from here). You might want to check out Numenor in Champaign if you're looking for somewhere else to fight. It's only about an hour away and it happens to be one of the largest realms in the Midwest. Maybe after attending practices for a while you could go back to your local realm and show em some of the stuff you've learned.


Also, when is the next time your going to practice, we might have to make a little excursion to put some people in there place. :D

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:06 pm
by Forsaken
Our next practice is Saturday at 2:30 or so. Its indoors. Directions can be provided if needed. And if you do happen to come, can you bring a few marshals and weapons checkers? The same guy that uses the flails, doesnt use cloth covers, he just double wraps his swords in athletic tape. Zaku (our "leader") says that he made it legal to do that without telling anyone. I personally think its a safety hazard.

Where do you practice at Mel? I might be able to get a few of my friends to travel to you. It would be a fun road trip and a great way to meet new friends.

Thanks
Forsaken

EDIT: I forgot to mention that at any given time, there are only about 5 or 6 of at practice until spring comes again.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:33 pm
by Arrakis
Forsaken, it sounds like your "Realm" leaders are jackholes and don't deserve the title. Making major changes to the fundamental rules of the game you're playing without a vote? Totalitarian.

If it's feasible, stage a coup or just take everyone else who'se frustrated and find somewhere else to fight.

Also, yeah, flailentine is hard to fight at first. So are flail and javelin, flail and rock, and other weird yet effective styles. Just practice.

Also, Florentine against him! A pair of 36" swords almost always trumps a pair of 40" flails if you're relatively aggressive and have some skill. With swords, you can block much more effectively and have 10-14" more blocking surface. Just don't underestimate they're reach.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:23 pm
by Peanut of Loderia
You are actually "fairly" close to Bloomington if the directions I found are correct. Wolfpack practices at the ISU campus there, you should look them up.


Also, you're about 130 southeast of Loderia, the realm me and Mel practice at.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:23 am
by Sir_Mel
Dude, doubled up grip tape on striking surface, ouch! Grip tape on any striking surface hurts, almost more than duct tape sometimes. Like Droknar said, we practice in Yorkville, IL but unfortunately we don't have an indoor location right now so the next practice wont be 'til it gets warmer. We also practice on Thursdays so it'd be a long drive home on a school night. Your best bet to get to a smallish practice (bigger than yours, smaller than numenor) would be to hit up Muxlovia practices in Romeoville. It's indoors on Saturdays from 11-2. Pretty decent fighting and a bunch of people from around the area come to fight cause it's one of the only close indoor fighting locations.

But yeah, smack the **** outta yer leaders cause that's just not cool.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 2:46 am
by Big King Jimmy
It looks to me, baring IN realms that I don't know anything about, you should hit up Numinor in Champaign.

As for your realm leaders, what retarded chumps. I almost want to say that you can tell them that Belegarth said they were retarded, but even in matters as concreate as this I can't speak for the whole sport.

You have better practices with a long drive that practice on the same day and at the same time you do. Ditch your practice. Go to either Pack or Numinor. You could even do both in one day. Like I said, Numinor is in Champaign, and Wolfpack is in Bloomington.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:36 pm
by Forsaken
Does anyone have the addresses of either place? And is anyone here going to the opener?

Oh yeah, I definitely don't think that his flails are under 40 inches. But then again, that comes under the rules that they made up to help them out.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:58 pm
by Porthos
Wolfpack practices at McCormick Gym on the ISU Campus on Saturdays, 2-6pm. We'd love to have you out, as new people are always welcome. Not to mention, we have a lot of folks who'd be willing to help you with your flailentine problem.

If he's out and fighting, I would HIGHLY suggest talking to Mekoot Davit about Flailentines. The guy is a wrecking ball with his flails and is always willing to help.

I don't know how adverse you are to javelins to the face, but that may be a solution. Or a good shield bash with a buddy to support you. Bash into him, take the hit, and have your friend get him when he's thrown off. That's how I deal with my freinds who have a love for florentine.

Or, as many have just said- get a spear and go to town. If you want to get fairly mean, take out his legs. Gimp him and leave him. From Davit's flailing attacks, he runs full tilt at the line from the side and demolishes it. When he's gimped, just get in there with a long sword. From what I've observed, a flailentiners main power is speed and shock. But that's just my observations, people may have a different viewpoint.

I like the idea with multiple arrows to the face. It's a bit more brutal, but watching him come in full tilt and get dropped by an arrow is subtly humorous.

Just my two cents.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:01 am
by Remdawg Killionaire
Follow Ralimar's lead, and up him by wielding FOUR flails, see how he likes that!

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:48 am
by Sir_Mel
'Remy wrote:Follow Ralimar's lead, and up him by wielding FOUR flails, see how he likes that!


I saw that, it was freakin insane.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:53 am
by Dane
Our next practice is Saturday at 2:30 or so. Its indoors. Directions can be provided if needed. And if you do happen to come, can you bring a few marshals and weapons checkers?


This is really the best bet as far as the livelihood of your realm goes. Invite some more experienced fighters up/down, let your realm mates see how their weapons are constructed, how they play the game, etc. It'll do a better job of highlighting what your realm leaders are doing wrong and might even inspire them (the realm leaders) to change some things. Trying to force a coup or starting up your own practice (effectively splitting the realm) can be disastrous for a young realm.

Also, definitely visit other practices like Wolfpack and Numenor. Nothing improves your own game like fighting against several fighters who've been doing this much longer than you have. You may find that after a few practices at these locations that the flailentine that's bothering you so much turns into a speed bump.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 5:09 am
by okita
I'm sure that once the leaders see how much of a small fish they are they will start to shape up.

I dunno... Usually what happens is they schmooze their balls off and reinforce their control, but things may be different in a game with no ladder awards.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:03 pm
by Big King Jimmy
To be clear, this isn't them just not knowing the rules right, it's them just breaking them for the hell of it?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:49 am
by Forsaken
Yeah, its them breaking them and pretty much rewriting them so they can do whatever they want.

PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:35 pm
by Big King Jimmy
Yah, I don't know what a handful of vets, unless they are serious whoop some * stick jock vets, will do in that situation. They don't seem to me like the kind of guys who are going to back down from what they do on account of daddy commin home.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:09 pm
by Horati OTFH
One of the hardest things I had to learn was that flails aren't a guaranteed win. When I was new to the sport I thought I would win no matter what with one. I now know different and use a sword, shield and jav. The guy needs to be taught that flails are not in any way whatsoever perfect.

Just my two cents.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:07 pm
by savetuba
So what are the bets that the leadership will out-law long spears after the guy beats the crap out of the flailer with an 8' spear.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:10 pm
by Horati OTFH
I'm betting $5.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:06 pm
by angus
yeah, just get some cheap bamboo and make a very long spear for everyone in your realm, see how that effects his fighting habits. They aren't hard to make and are just about as costly as a good blue sword. If you spend more than $10 bucks on a spear, probably did something wrong.

(special note, if there are tree-farms in your area, they will sure as hell have ridiculous supplies of 12'+ bamboo poles...check the yellow pages and make some calls, the tree farmer I used to work for would have gladly let me cart off a bundle of 20 of them for 50 bucks... the problem was I didn't have a big enough car to get them home)

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:19 pm
by MagnusofDregoth
Go for the spear, flails do not have good enough balance to deflect thrusting weapons well. But, really, sword & shield can defeat flailentine most of the time--once you know how to use it. Since you're knew, I wouldn't expect you to have the right instincts about shieldwork, so you should try to get a vet to show you the ropes in person.

Also, your realm leaders sound like jerks. Who gave them the authority to change the rules like that? Why are they the leaders and not someone else? You should try to re-organize the group so that everyone has a more-or-less equal say in the way that the realm conducts its practices and battles. And I definitely think you should get some more experienced fighters out to your field, or, barring that, make the drive once a month to Loderia or Wolfpack or Numenor; all three realms have some pretty solid fighters who can show you a lot, and who will also school your flailentine-wielding leaders.

I won't be the one to say that no-one should use the two-flail style, since it looks like fun, but just be aware that the flail is perhaps the most limiting weapon on the field, in that it confines you to one style more than any other weapon. Once you've figured out how to succeed with sword & shield, or red sword, or spear, or whatever, and he's still at the middling level he's reached now, I think he'll get the message.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:43 pm
by Sir_Mel
Don't worry Magnus, a trip is already in the works. We've been plannin this for a while now.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:40 pm
by sugona
Wow I have read the thread..and just wow. I'm wondering why a group would do that, it discourages fighters from fighting...just ugh....

any who, Gilead is in Peoria, I'm not sure how close you are to the area, pm if your in a decent driving range.

on a side note I would love to get my chodes together and invade a practice.....it just gets under my skin