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 Post subject: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:14 pm 
Backstabber
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OK so I know they worked (most of the time) historicly. Normans, Anglo /Saxons,Vikings, Late Romano Brits,Celts, Picts, and Dwarves & Hobbits. Ect.
There bane was the Horse (Hastings)and formed units Celts vs Roman.
I am told that the larger "Eastern Realms use em"
But a few in my realm say that they wont hold up to "western style" fighters. there term not mine.
I belive they would work if practiced.
We have 8 shields, 18 fighters, and were makin more shields. I expect 10 to 12 total shieldsby the end of summer. we sport 2 glaives.a couple of bows/Javs and a few hold to florentine.
I think we might pull it off with a lot of practice how ever I would like your opinion

Thanx
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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:39 pm 
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I've been in Legion, am a guard in Clan of the Hydra, and Hydra is of course a part of Iron Crown.

All 3 either did or do use shield walls.

Here's the problem: They have to be huge. HUGE. If you can be flanked, ever, at all, then you will be flanked, and you will lose.

When Iron crown had a shield wall 50 men wide with another 25-40 fighters for support weapons, we did awesome. When we have ~20 or so people with about a 10 man shield wall, not so hot.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 1:46 pm 
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Thanx for your help wow wish we had those numbers.
How many were you facing when you were out flanked.
As it stands even with our small numbers comparitivly to yours we out number most local groups 3 to 1.
though I would love to see more opponets out here. What we face is supioror fighters but few of em.


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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:09 pm 
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The Western Uruk-Hai specializes in the use of smaller-scale shield walls than the ones back east and have developed tactics to effectively use the number of people they do have. I've seen the western Uruk-Hai maintain an effective shield wall with only 6 people. Of course, this was against a lot fewer fighters than you'd encounter in the east, but it still worked to defeat more opponents than the amount of fighters it took to form the wall.

Talk to Forkbeard if you want to know more.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:14 pm 
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The problem is, as Jimmy pointed out, if you get flanked, it takes a while for the shield wall to compensate. I've seen the Iron Crown shield wall get fairly messed up by a group of ten fighters, 6 or 7 with shields and the rest with polearms. By the time the wall was able to shift to cover, they'd lost 25ish fighters.

That being said, I've also seen them set up in a corner of the field and never lose an inch of turf.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:18 pm 
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When our numbers were at their biggest were Spring War '06 and Octfest '06. At Spring war there was about 400 on the field, at Octfest there was about 500. Needless to say it wasn't IC vs the world.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:30 pm 
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Wow wish I could get to one of those events.
I get it though. it sounds like a wall alone is in trouble with out some depth to back it up
Thanx


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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:30 pm 
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The folks on the end of a line at a Ragnarok pickup battle let me around the edge and I, by myself, killed 12 or 13 people before the wall just disintegrated and I had to start actually fighting instead of just murdering.

Shield walls are a great tactic for an army, less good for a skirmishing group. Skirmishing groups need a looser formation. You can, however, learn to fight in a loose formation and still take advantage of oblique shots and otherwise helping out your allies.


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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:27 pm 
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Yah, the problem is really that when faced with a line of <10 fighters, and you being a group of <10 fighters, why in the world would you ever fight them head on? Circle up, and now half of you at are their backs. At that point the only real chance they have is to crescent or full on circle up, both of which take away the shield walls mobility, which is very important.

Look at ancient shield walls or the phalanx. Look at how wide they were. Even in the battle of Thermopile (spelling might be off, think 300) a small shield wall only had any effect because their flank was guarded by cliffs.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:26 am 
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As BC stated, the Western UH have developed something of a blend of the shield wall and the skirmisher groups. One reason we are able to use small-er-ish shield walls is that we don't normally fight as a wall, we fight as skirmishers. So when we do use the wall and get flanked, we tend to break up and flank back, or split off into groups of 2-3 and engage that way until we can form back up effectivly. Our goal is rarely to stay in a wall formation, but to use it as an intimidation factor and offensive tactic before the fighting gets too chaotic and and we have to switch to skirmish tactics.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:57 am 
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that is well put. mentally CotH has had a hard time adjustiung from one mindset to the other. we are getting it together now though.

small shield wall that doesn't adapt in battle = death. seen it too many times to say. small 3 person skirmish groups that close as a wall and them shift to their groups is a very effective tactic. also hides true intentions. also has the bonus of reacting to the enemy. if they don't flank then go ahead and stay as a wall and crush them. if the flank them scatter.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:24 pm 
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We're still working on it, but when it works, it works great.
I beleive the problem is mindset, as BO said. Your whole team has to be ready for anything. And they need to know what they are supposed to do BEFORE things get **** up and loud on the field.
As an army useing shield wall tactics we(the Western Uruk-Hai) have met with mixed results. I feel this is mostly due to the fact that when we are at a big war with large numbers, many of the people we have to work with are fairly new, having just joined. At smaller wars, our numbers are less but the people there are usually more experienced and know each other better. This problem is taking care of itself as we get to know our newer guys and they get to know us. Once every man in the wall knows his place and what to do in it, we'll destroy any flankers who come at us. We are also distributing field manuals to all of our people to aid in this.
I think the biggest thing for you to do is train your people. Make sure they all know and are LISTENING for commands.
I think the reason western fighters think the shield wall is ineffective is that none of them has ever been part of one that worked well. They only really try it in large battles at large events where the team doesn't really know each other and haven't trained together and under those circumstances, a wall can't work.
My favorite thing to do is wait for the inevitable "toilet bowl" to start swiling around the field, then form a wall and swim our whole army upstream. More people die from the confusion than anything else.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:28 pm 
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Shield walls require a great deal of training and discipline especially when attacks can come from any direction. Historically, the fighters that made up these shield walls trained on a regular basis. Plus, in some armies, you were dealt with very harshly if you attempted to flee from fighting in the wall.

Here's an SCA essay that illustrates why complicated tactics such as a shield wall can be difficult to execute:

Quote:
Being recently inducted into the command structure of an SCA army I would like to address this. Basically because I had the exact same notion going in.

There are many factors to consider when commanding an army in the SCA. Some of which are listed below:

1. Training - The army is basically comprised of "volunteers". Not only that but volunteers that only train sporadically. Realistically, even if you started training your troops months in advance at every event you will only be able to train a certain percentage of your troops and only a few times at the most because not everyone goes to every event, and some don't go at all.

2. Complexity - with a volunteer army that has only minimal to moderate training you can only really expect them to be able to carry out very simple commands. Ie, advance at a step, charge, ground your shields. With commands like wheel right, wheel left, mad dog right, mad dog left being advanced commands.

3. Experience - how experienced is your army. Is a significant amount of your army made up of people who are new or at their very first war? If so you can't expect them to know how to repel a full sprint Tuchux charge. You can instruct them but until they are knee deep on dead bodies they won't understand.

4. Desire - This is a game. If you are to strict or regimented you will get "fall off". Ie, people will get tired of your yelling and stop fighting, OR even worse break off into smaller groups and do their own thing. Not everyone is going to enjoy the intricacies(sp?) of how the "* of the Wombat" maneuver works or even care how to carry it out. Some people are just there to hit other people.

5. Information - no one likes the "blind leading the blind" tactic. Inform your troops of their jobs realistically and with enough warning they can organize (if this is possible).

6. FUN - Make boring stuff fun, make the fun stuff MORE fun and you will have a happy army. If no one is having fun they will do something else. Not every second has to fun, but try and make the best of every situation.


With all of the above PLUS other factors like Allies, Scenarios, Scenario changes at the last minute, weather, etc. Sometimes "Get'em" is about the best you can hope for with a SCA army.


For the record, I have no idea what the "* of the Wombat" is supposed to be...

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Kyrian wrote:
For the record, I have no idea what the "* of the Wombat" is supposed to be...



me neither, but i HAVE been on the recieving end of a few full sprint Tuchux charge. not fun :axed:

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:05 am 
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Forgive me noob-ness, but. What is a Tuchux charge?

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:17 pm 
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I think the Tuchuck's are a really mean SCA group.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:37 pm 
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They're pretty much the monsters of the SCA...**** god I'd love to join up with these guys.....

Pictures say it all....

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Eat that!

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Holy ****, I love those guys.
Let's start our own SCA monster group.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:11 pm 
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I just started fighting SCA this last sunday. I'm down Fork. Call me so we can plan some **** :goblin:

The skull helm is freaking amazing. Maybe I should get an sca legal chompy helm.....hmmmmm....And the guy with the Boar helm looks like something out of the Road Warrior movie. **** awesome.

--Jegg

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:06 pm 
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I just (finally), after weeks of emailing, got in contact with the Chatelaine of my local Barony.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:27 pm 
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I just came. All I need to say.

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/76rQv6Emaf4&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/76rQv6Emaf4&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CbsUmQ0SdiM&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CbsUmQ0SdiM&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

I want in on that....

--Jegg

Wow, there is like 20 Heavy Metal Combat videos. I'm so joining up in that ****!

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Laaaame. Beefed up Stage Combat with no rules and no winning.


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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:23 pm 
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You don't need to win when you're a total bad *....Looking like a total beast is winning enough.

If you've never worn full plate, it hurts like a * to fall down in it, much less be thrown around, kicked, punched, etc. Those guys know how to make fighting look even cooler.

And, the "any thing goes" part is what makes it epic. Have you ever seen fully armored dudes going at it like that? I know I haven't, and it looks freaking sweet. Ya gotta love it for what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:34 am 
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See: Empire of Medieval Pursuits.

But The Knights of Heavy Metal Combat do make it look pretty cool.


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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:26 pm 
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WOW, just, wow.
I don't like the no rules approach, but it still looks bad *.
I also don't fight with live steel. I cound't live with myself if I hurt some body.
All that aside, these guys fight SCA, obviously. I say we form a new SCA monster army and fight them. Then, if they are as cool as us, join them and **** up the rest of the SCA.
I'm already working on a chompy face ield for an SCA helm. I plan to wear the same armor I wear for Bel. I've already made the mod to it. And I have different legs w/metal knees and a gorget.
I gotta get the gauntlets built this winter!!
FB

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:39 pm 
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Forkbeard, excellent. I faved this totally badass shot of you in your armor on deviantArt:
Image

Have you made any improvements/upgrades? Do you have a recent shot?


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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:09 pm 
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That's an Awesome Pic. Thank you so much.
The armor looks the same but I made Buzbands from 16oz sole bend leather for my forarm/elbow instead of the jointed elbows. The Buzbands are much more protective and the sole bend turn out to be the hardest leather I ever saw. I also put some re-inforcement peices over the kidney area on the belt and some hip protectors on the skirt.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:12 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Fork sez"But never the less, even from the back, your kidneys aren't my problem."

Oh yeah Im gettin a kidney belt. Cause front shot or cheep shot at my age you dont F*** around.

Realy sweet armor Fork(and you other fellers too).
Even Though the shield wall thing became a armor expose. Im glad yall chimed in
Thanx
My small group is now getting more shields we also have two glaves,a couple who "only go florentine"a couple of Javs and a bow.
I see what was said about end runs as being helpful also I have considered the fact that we cant cover on a big field against anything like equil numbers. I have looked at a more indepth defence though as a possibility and since we strongly out number the other local realms if we practised the he** out it we might pull it off. They are alot more experienced and so kick our butts every time we dont double or tripple team em. (Coronus)+ others I dont expect to catch up to thier skill level real soon so Im still looking for tactics.
Thanx agian any more help would be nice
If not just keep the picts commin
The Orion Nomad


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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:49 pm 
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If not just keep the picts commin
...


I'm all out of Picts; will Gauls suffice?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:18 pm 
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Holy **** Fork, I hadn't seen your armor since the Oct'fest you made it to. God * man that's amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 12:30 pm 
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Keep the picts comin? Hell they been extinct for a thousand years.
;Thanks Jimmy.
As for shield wall tactics, you're best be is to get all your guys learning the basic commands.
Forward.
Back.
Stop(not Halt, cuz it sounds like hold).
Turn Right.
Turn left.
Scatter.
Form up.
And of course, Charge. But make sure you teach them that charge does not mean run up to the enemy and fight them. I mean run THROUGH the enemy and hit them if you can on the way through, then re-form on the other side.
And don't make them stand too close, but don't let them stand too far apart either.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 2:56 pm 
Hero
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Forkbeard wrote:
Keep the picts comin? Hell they been extinct for a thousand years.
;Thanks Jimmy.
As for shield wall tactics, you're best be is to get all your guys learning the basic commands.
Forward.
Back.
Stop(not Halt, cuz it sounds like hold).
Turn Right.
Turn left.
Scatter.
Form up.
And of course, Charge. But make sure you teach them that charge does not mean run up to the enemy and fight them. I mean run THROUGH the enemy and hit them if you can on the way through, then re-form on the other side.
And don't make them stand too close, but don't let them stand too far apart either.
FB


These are really good. The only two I would add is a "Shift left" and a "Shift right" where you maintain the same facing (generally towards the enemy :angel: ) but move laterally to cover openings or to get fighters into a better position.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:51 pm 
Barbarian
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Ya we use that too, except we call it "slide" left/right. Fork just forgot ;)

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:58 am 
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For good spacing, in the shield walls I've been in general convention is that if you hold your right arm straight out you should be able to touch the guy next to you's shoulder with the tips of your fingers, or put your hand on his shoulder. That's only give or take a half foot or so.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:29 am 
Barbarian
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right arm straight out

...Wait a minute that seems familiar... So a shield wall is just a modified inspection formation from ROTC?

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:27 pm 
Hero
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Hatchet Warrior wrote:
right arm straight out

...Wait a minute that seems familiar... So a shield wall is just a modified inspection formation from ROTC?


I'm guessing you mean the drill command, "Dress right, DRESS!" To some degree, this is true. Unless you're on a bridge, you generally want to leave each person enough space on either side in which to maneuver. Being shield to shield in an open field situation will reduce the amount of frontage you can cover and makes it easier to get flanked. It also reduces your mobility because of the need to stay together. With gaps between people, there's room to maneuver but it increases the likelihood of creating gaps in your line that the enemy can exploit. However, you could use the tight shield wall to mask whatever you've got planning behind the wall, say, for example, a fast skirmisher team that can kick out as soon as as the shield wall engages the enemy.

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:14 pm 
Slayer
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**EDIT**


sorry, i suck at posting vids =(

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 Post subject: Re: shield walls 4 belegarth????
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:55 pm 
Slayer
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Forkbeard wrote:
And of course, Charge. But make sure you teach them that charge does not mean run up to the enemy and fight them. I mean run THROUGH the enemy and hit them if you can on the way through, then re-form on the other side.
FB



thank you...that drives me crazy when i see that...

i saw that a good handful of times with new guys at wolfpack 08...

wanted to tear my own head off.

P.S. fork, that armor is definitely BA.

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