Belegarth
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The Roman Tortoise?
http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=28708
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Author:  undertaker9076 [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:44 pm ]
Post subject:  The Roman Tortoise?

Ok, I've played a lot of games and seen a lot of stuff on the Romans and their gathering up and doing a tortoise with all the shields to protect from missile weapons and the like. Anyone ever try this? I will say I've never actually participated in a battle yet, so I figure from just looking around that only the guys that emulate actual Roman tactics would even be capable of it, but I figure if you got the size and number of shields you could do a halfway version of it. Just an idea though, I kinda have a feeling people tried and found it a bit pointless to do it all.

Author:  Crynolyn [ Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

There is a Roman unit in Dagorhir. I haven't seen them do a "tortoise" but they're skilled with the shield wall.

Here's a video of them, it cuts out because my battery died

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoVKf38eJm4

Author:  undertaker9076 [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Always seem like a disorderly mob, not a good bunch of guys moving as one. And seems like no one can really capture anything in particular and keep with it for a good view of happenings with the whole organized chaos going on. What the heck is "Double Green" even suppose to be? I know what red, blue, and green are standard, but double green?

Author:  Derian [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Yeah, there really is no organization in the manner you're thinking of. It's simply not necessary or advantageous in our game.

'Double Green' is a green thrust delivered with two hands. The attacker calls out 'double green' to let the defender know that the strike had two hands and thus pierces through armor.

Author:  Peanut of Loderia [ Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

The tortoise formation was a good way for the roman legion to protect itself from arrow volleys. Since we have no arrow volleys, the move is not really practical since it leaves you open to any number of charging attacks.

Author:  undertaker9076 [ Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

But couldn't someone make an event to mimic such thing anyway? Pretty sure that's legal if you get people to consent to it. And after not looking at this awhile and watching about 100 videos of battles and all I see why a lot of organization is sorta useless. Helps to keep your guys together since you'd know them and how to keep people from dying too quick, but even that seems to generally be pointless. I still say a Tortoise would be kinda fun to see and it was also used to defend from cavalry since it's be recorded a full legion in a tortoise could have a cavalry unit charge over their shields and no man in the formation would be injured. I am glad I now know what double green is. That's just gonna suck to get hit by though... "Aw...pierces armor..."

Author:  Jay HellHammer [ Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

undertaker9076 wrote:
But couldn't someone make an event to mimic such thing anyway?


Definitely, how about you? Talk to event coordinators, planners and archers. Say hey I want to run a battle this day at this time. If it's early in the event, most folks might be for it. If it works, they might let you plan other battles, scenarios, etc. Never be afraid to step up and take point in something you want to see or do.

Author:  Peanut of Loderia [ Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

The legion had much better formations than the testudo to defend against cavalry. For instance, the phalanx. They'd all lock shield and point their pila forward. Never a good thing to run into.

Author:  D'Vinn [ Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Go to an event then make conclusions from that and change your fighting style around the game to make you more leathal . Im not telling you not to inovate but Belegarth has been around so long there are things that work and things that dont most of them have been discovered already. And dont over think things too much just have fun.

Author:  Cib [ Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Part of the problem with Roman tactics like the Tortoise, are they they require a fair bit of organization and dispassion, and coporation. In Belegarth (and all medieval combat games really) people are their to have fun, not many people finned training in maneuvers and such.. fun (with a few exceptions). And so, when you try to train a group of fighters for something like the Tortoise, they leave, they just what to fight. You got to keep things simple, basic if you want them to work properly.

Think of most fighting groups as an untrained rabble, and at most a militia. Armies train consistently, militia train when they can, which is not very often, which makes it difficult to perfect complex maneuvers like the Tortoise.

If you are interested in Roman tactic check this site out:
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.html

I to would love to see a Roman unit that actually used roman tactics properly.

Author:  Relg [ Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Did I detect some irritation in that last comment, Cib? lol

Author:  Thomas MacFinn [ Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Cib wrote:
In Belegarth (and all medieval combat games really) people are their to have fun, not many people finned training in maneuvers and such.. fun (with a few exceptions). And so, when you try to train a group of fighters for something like the Tortoise, they leave, they just what to fight.


QFT. ... and it doesn't matter if it is Roman phalanxes or 16th century pikes, some weapons and maneuvers require more organization and boring old drill than a large group of volanteers are willing to devote to them.

Quote:
I to would love to see a Roman unit that actually used roman tactics properly.


Or any other unit using weapons taller than they are in close quarters.

Author:  Peanut of Loderia [ Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

While the Roman legions understood how to create and use a phalanx, it was not their primary formation. They generally used cohorts as they were "handier" and more flexible.

Author:  Kyrian [ Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

The testudo's strength, i.e., its defensive capabilities against missile weapons are mitigated by the type of battles currently prevalent in Belegarth, namely large skirmish engagements. If a testudo were to appear on the field, I would foresee small groups of quick fighters conducting hit-and-run attacks with missiles, spears, and red weapons. All it would take is a few of the shields to go down, and the "clumpiness" (Is that a word? :D ) of the formation would mean it would get probably end up as a DIP (die in place) mission.

One way I think that it might be useful is as a hiding and delivery system for other types of forces. If you hide your fastest skirmishers within the middle of the testudo and marched to a good location, you could immediately disperse the testudo and have the skirmishers break off to do their thing.

Author:  Cib [ Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Like an exploding missile/armored personnel transport. That would be sweet!

Author:  Black Cat [ Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Kyrian wrote:
If a testudo were to appear on the field, I would foresee small groups of quick fighters conducting hit-and-run attacks with missiles, spears, and red weapons. All it would take is a few of the shields to go down, and the "clumpiness" (Is that a word? :D ) of the formation would mean it would get probably end up as a DIP (die in place) mission.


I've got a good name for that:

Rigor Mortis Tortoise

Author:  Arrakis [ Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Black Cat wrote:
Kyrian wrote:
If a testudo were to appear on the field, I would foresee small groups of quick fighters conducting hit-and-run attacks with missiles, spears, and red weapons. All it would take is a few of the shields to go down, and the "clumpiness" (Is that a word? :D ) of the formation would mean it would get probably end up as a DIP (die in place) mission.


I've got a good name for that:

Rigor Mortis Tortoise



You're Doing It Wrong.

Rigor Tortoise.

Author:  Tiberius [ Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

The testudeo is only effective if every shield is the same. My men and i tryed to from one and it worked to keep arrows and javs off us but when the enemy charged we got screwed pretty hard. With a smaller number like my unit we managed to form a testudo/phalanx which worked better.

Author:  undertaker9076 [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Eh, it was a random thought. Figure my group is going for a more Viking type of thing, just a lot of guys knowing how to fight but not a lot of organization. It'll work. I might just suggest it at an event just to see if people might get a kick out of it. Course it'd by what I'd call Peasant Tortoise, but still yet, it'd be interesting to see if a bunch of miss-matched groups could form a remotely effective formation.

Author:  Judas [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

undertaker9076 wrote:
Figure my group is going for a more Viking type of thing, just a lot of guys knowing how to fight but not a lot of organization.

Vikings often used shield wall defense tactics and where also famous for the svinfylking or a "boar formation" -- a wedge formation of 20 to 30 warriors used to charge and overcome an enemy’s line…
FYI.

Author:  Cib [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Now that sounds like it has more potential to work on a Belegath field! I will have to look in to it...

Author:  Augustine [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

For the sake of argument, the testudo isn't even that effective against volley-fired arrows-- it's effective against rocks, heavy objects thrown from walls, and in some cases, tar or heated fat which flows in such a way over the shields that it lands in the gaps between Legionnaires. Arrows tend to pick up enough momentum to pierce three layers of wood when they're fired as a volley-- the angle they fall at tends to give them just enough to get through.

It is, however, effective against horse archers and skirmishing short-ranged missiles, such as javelins, slingers, and things of that nature.

It's a shame that there's not the desire to be skilled as a unit or the discipline or practicality to pull off a testudo in Bel. I've always been a big proponent of lessening the "let's line up and fight and not pay attention to anything your teammates do" sort of fighting that goes on, and have always thought a bigger emphasis needed to be placed on technique and working as a team.

Author:  xexplox [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Crynolyn wrote:
There is a Roman unit in Dagorhir. I haven't seen them do a "tortoise" but they're skilled with the shield wall.

Here's a video of them, it cuts out because my battery died

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoVKf38eJm4

thats the closest tortouise ive ever seen on a video in bel...my compliments too them...where are they located?

Author:  Crynolyn [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

yikes, this thread is old...

They're not Belegarth, they're Dagorhir

Author:  Peanut of Loderia [ Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

If I remember correctly, they're based out of Aratari (sp?) which is in DC. Or Maryland. Somewhere around there.

Author:  Tiberius [ Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

wow old thread indeed! yeah That Rome is based out of D.C. they also have a group in Buffalo newyork, a small detachment in florida, and i'm trying to start one up in ohio now

Author:  Cade [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Tiberius wrote:
wow old thread indeed! yeah That Rome is based out of D.C. they also have a group in Buffalo newyork, a small detachment in florida, and i'm trying to start one up in ohio now


Where in Ohio?

Author:  Tiberius [ Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Roman Tortoise?

Toledo

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