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 Post subject: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:42 pm 
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Okay, so I got into this discussion with someone I know today, and he's declaring that wearing a claw-gauntlet on each hand would be a viable strategy in a duel against an armored opponent with a sword and shield, by means of grappling and slashing. Bear in mind that he has literally no combat experience, Belegarth or otherwise.

Thinking his opinion absurd, I decided to check into the historical use of claw-like weapons, and only managed to uncover those things that ninjas would apparently use. It doesn't seem to me that claws were a truly viable weapon in any point in history, due to the sword's inherent reach advantage. I know this probably seems ridiculous, but does anyone here know of any historical evidence of claw weapons being used, or have any opinions on how this type of fight would play out? Again, I'm currently heavily in favor of the sword/shield user.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:58 pm 
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I bet he's thinking this:

Image

Show him this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:59 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell-Cat_Maggie

Hellcat maggie from the dead rabbits wore them, not sure how well that worked out for her, she didnt die in gangfights so prolly pretty well.

and before people say she was made up, the dead rabbits were real and she was real.

Edit: she would cut peoples ears off with them and keep them in a jar in her bar, rhyme.

i think the sword and shield would win it, claws have no reach and he would be able to get close enough to grapple

f they were armblades, it maybe a diffrent story, maybe. if the person had any weapon with large handles, axes, spears thow te claw/ armblade person could grab the weapons and rip it out of there hands winning the fight. ive uses armblades and there good against almost al weapos but shields, punching those are not fun. its crazy how fast you can go from blocking an attack to ripping there weapon out of there hand.

http://www.ugo.com/movies/psychopaths/? ... morepics=1


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Possibly the best thing you can do is to chop the arguement apart in little bits. For example, instead of arguing "skilled ninja warrior who can leap over opponents heads from standing vs great lumbering oaf who wears so much armor he can barely swing a sword", break the myths down to one piece at a time. Compare things that can be objectively compared.

Which is better against an armored or unarmored opponent,

a ninja claw
Image

or a rondel dagger?
Image
(Answer: With a 12" long blade, a rondel dagger has reach, penetrating power, and allows greater wrist motion)


Last edited by Thomas MacFinn on Sun May 17, 2009 6:16 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:26 pm 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tekagi-shuko

it says here that there good disarming weapons, so if the claw"er" could disarm him it would have a chance if it didnt get a shield to the face, and thats only if its a skilled and trained ninja of course

wonder if it makes climbing trees faster


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:36 pm 
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In a battle between a skilled warrior and an inept noob, the skilled warrior often wins no matter what the warrior calls himself or what equipment the noob carries.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:37 pm 
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yea but what i ment was a skill sword guy and skilled claw guy go at it.

i still think the sword shield would win thow. but i think claw vs dagger.. Claw would win mostly because you cant get the same force behind a dagger that you could a sword. daggers can be easly, even unarmed, bocked and disarmed.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Ninja claws are mostly secondary or hidden weapons used for stealth-attacks, catching weapons, or scaling trees/buildings. They're great for their purpose, but I doubt that they'd work against an aware shield-user with a good shield and a decent amount of fighting skill. Only a ninja with an extreme level of hand-to-hand fighting proficiency would be capable of defeating a competent sword-and-shield user in direct combat with only claws. The claws would help, but they'd be little more than a significant addition to a ninja's hand-to-hand fighting capabilities rather than weapons in their own right.

DeadRabbit wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell-Cat_Maggie

Hellcat maggie from the dead rabbits wore them, not sure how well that worked out for her, she didnt die in gangfights so prolly pretty well.

and before people say she was made up, the dead rabbits were real and she was real.


So basically, your unit is the medieval-fantasy version of an 1850's NYC street gang?

How charming.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:55 pm 
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Ninja claws don't leave exit wounds ... through plate armor.

I specifically mentioned the rondel dagger because it was often called "the can opener" by modern fans. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:09 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWrviw6M9Eo

well i didnt know armor came into the mix. but the video shows blocking the dagger wont be hard for a trained person, but really the claws wouldnt be a facter, like you said theyed just mess you up alittle but your wouldnt die from it. the punches are whats doing the damage here.

and black cat im not sure if that was ment to offened me but ill keep my mouth shut.

the dead rabbits datd way before the 1800, and its more what they stand for that attracts us to the name.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:15 pm 
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DeadRabbit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWrviw6M9Eo


Skilled warrior vs noob (or practice dummy moving in slow motion which amounts to the same thing).


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:18 pm 
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ya alittle slow but you get the idea, i wouldnt want a dude swinging a real dagger at me no matter how good i was, just in case.

it was mostly just an example, theres othere people out there much better then him and if you were actually in the ages im sure you would be better then anyone in are time.


Last edited by Mercutio on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Thomas MacFinn wrote:


I like this video too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuEGzOizJ-o


Last edited by Thomas MacFinn on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:30 pm 
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yeah that is pretty cool, swords would kill claw person 9.9 outa ten times.

i dont know if you catched last weeks deadliest warrior. but the samurai sword went threw three of those .


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:28 pm 
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DeadRabbit wrote:
and black cat im not sure if that was ment to offened me but ill keep my mouth shut.

the dead rabbits datd way before the 1800, and its more what they stand for that attracts us to the name.


Who were the Dead Rabbits in the medieval era? Wikipedia only has articles describing the 1850's variety.

And by 'charming', I really just meant that fictional medieval-era street thugs don't really fit with the medieval theme. Sure, they had thieves guilds back then, but the garrison of a town could make short work of almost any riot or gang war that happened out in the streets in plain sight. They often dealt with such things very ruthlessly. Such garrisons were certainly equipped to be able to deal with a lot worse, since they were usually equipped for war.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:01 am 
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I should probably mention that he wanted the claw user to primarily attack the head. How the attacker gets a clear shot across the eyes or neck when the defender has a shield and at least a couple of feet of reach advantage is beyond me.

Anyway, I'm sure he'll change his entire argument around and add/subtract something to avoid being wrong, but thanks for the comments.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:47 am 
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they used to be called the dead reabeads, and when they came to america reporters called them rabbits by mistake and they liked it, they wernt as far back as the medieval ages but they went a couple hundred years back. like i said we just adapted what they stand for and there symbal really, scarier then a black cat, haha just kiding but really.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 9:48 am 
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Claw weapons. What a joke!


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:38 pm 
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DeadRabbit wrote:
they used to be called the dead reabeads, and when they came to america reporters called them rabbits by mistake and they liked it, they wernt as far back as the medieval ages but they went a couple hundred years back. like i said we just adapted what they stand for and there symbal really, scarier then a black cat, haha just kiding but really.


That actually does sound scary.

It's just that when I think of rabbits, my mind conjures up images of generally harmless little bunnies or their stronger, fast-running cousins. (hares)

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:30 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:34 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 10:21 am 
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Bunnies and Claw weapons...ROFL...

OK...Ninja were not warriors first, they were stealthy assassins. The used deciet and less than honorable tactics to win melee engagements. Their primary weapon in these melee engagements was blinding powders and the sword or knife, not claws or kusari-gama or chains or other crap that is proported by modern practicioners of "ninja" skills.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:03 pm 
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anyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:13 pm 
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Your friend is deluded. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that he's watched more ninja movies and played more video games than he has read books on weapons, armour, or close-quarters combat. He speaks from a position of ignorance. Tell him so.

I don't think any sort of claw weapon would have much chance against a man in full armour. Your friend might think he'd have an easy time trying to jam a claw into the eyeslot of a visor, but I think it'd be a much more difficult proposition in the heat of battle, all the while the armoured warrior was trying to kill the claw-wielder with a sword.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 2:37 pm 
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just sword and shield vs just claws. no armour or anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 8:32 pm 
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In that scenario...guy with claws will loose most of the time. There are no absolutes, but think of it this way. Two fighters on the field one with S&B and one with just a sword....who will win most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:10 am 
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SteelClad_Lad wrote:
Your friend is deluded. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that he's watched more ninja movies and played more video games than he has read books on weapons, armour, or close-quarters combat. He speaks from a position of ignorance. Tell him so.

Yeah, I've done that. Everything he says is pretty much theory, but he'll defend it with a total lack of sources like it's some common sense fact.

Quote:
I don't think any sort of claw weapon would have much chance against a man in full armour. Your friend might think he'd have an easy time trying to jam a claw into the eyeslot of a visor, but I think it'd be a much more difficult proposition in the heat of battle, all the while the armoured warrior was trying to kill the claw-wielder with a sword.

Well the claws he was talking about would ideally have some sort of gauntlet arm extension to block blows, but honestly, that's deluded as well, in my opinion. By the time the claw user "blocked the sword with his arm, grabbed the swordsman's shield and tackled him down to tear off his helmet" (as he put it, roughly), he'd be dead a dozen times over. I agree with what you said, he's going off of fantasy. I mostly posted here to get other opinions as support. Thanks everybody. 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:52 pm 
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you guys have clearly never fought against a set of claws that Soth made.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:24 pm 
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I've always wanted to construct a huge, five foot or so claw like this bad man, but alas, no claws in Belegarth. Not sure how you'd punch with that one though. <_<


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:47 am 
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claws vs sword and shield= no argument shield and sword wins

claws vs anything without a shield I'm gonna say has a way bigger chance

but lets agree that with a shield there is no chance


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:42 am 
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Medieval Indian society produced both sword-and-shield (err...dahl-and-tulwar) fighters and claw fighters (bich'hwa bagh-nakh). If the claws--bich-hwa bagh-nakh--had been all that effective, they'd be a lot more common than swords and shields, and that just isn't the case.

The Bagh-nakh is the only historical claw weapon that I can think of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagh_nakh

I don't think anything like your friend's fantasy claws ever existed in history.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:22 am 
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One thing that I like about combat sports is that you can say "That sounds really interesting, could we gear up so you can show me?"

I had a guy in the SCA many years ago who, after he realized how maneuverable armor is, came up with a somersault ending in a thrust maneuver that he thought would take opponents by surprise.

One of our vets said, "I don't think it would work but I may not understand it corrently. Could you show me?" The guy geared up did his somersault then stopped suddenly when his shield met the ground, flat on his back. Our vet said simply, "Guess that move needs some work."

Before joining Belegarth, I would have said spins were stupid then saw a video of a guy doing a spin correctly with commentary on how to avoid the obvious counterattacks.

If the guy gets too obnoxious, grab a blue-green sword, point it at him and say "Pretend you have claws. Show me in slow motion what you are talking about." Then drop the tip 3" and back up again around his hand when he tries to claw it aside. Bap the back of his hand lightly if you have that much point control.

There's a reason the wild stuff that eats up weeks of time on the boards rarely takes more than 5 minutes to disprove in person.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:46 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:09 am 
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:
Bunnies and Claw weapons...ROFL...

OK...Ninja were not warriors first, they were stealthy assassins. The used deciet and less than honorable tactics to win melee engagements. Their primary weapon in these melee engagements was blinding powders and the sword or knife, not claws or kusari-gama or chains or other crap that is proported by modern practicioners of "ninja" skills.


Actually, they were espionage units really. They would gather information, sabotage food supplies, and weapons. They would ignite a city during a battle to scare and disorient the enemy, and more likely wore commoners clothing to disguise themselves. Although, there were plenty of Ninja Warriors (Hanzo Hitori), they used swords, spears, scythes, and other common place weapons. None of this claw weapon crap.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:27 am 
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Kamden wrote:
...they used swords, spears, scythes, and other common place weapons. None of this claw weapon crap.


LOL.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:33 pm 
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Maybe he meant that a scythe would have been easy to acquire or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2009 8:36 am 
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???What The Freckle???
Guess you have NOT been liften up off the ground by a dagger?

Dagger fighting can be VERY physical as well as VERY FAST- like fast enough for 3 Heralds NOT be able to see if dagger landed.


Mercutio wrote:
yea but what i ment was a skill sword guy and skilled claw guy go at it.

i still think the sword shield would win thow. but i think claw vs dagger.. Claw would win mostly because you cant get the same force behind a dagger that you could a sword. daggers can be easly, even unarmed, bocked and disarmed.

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:24 pm 
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ITT: Fail

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 3:35 am 
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Started Fighting: 06 Apr 1983
Favorite Fighting Styles: kicking
So far in my research, there is no historical evidence of claw weapons being used.

There is artistic and literary evidence showing that the early Maya used severed jaguar claws mounted on sticks as weapons

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:34 am 
Grizzled Veteran
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Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 11:26 pm
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Location: Elgin, IL (Dunharrow)
Started Fighting: 0- 5-2001
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Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Bat and Board, Archery, Spear
You do know that you just rezzed a four month old thread in order to say "I found nothing to contradict what you're saying."

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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:10 am 
Brute
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Necromancy must be your strong suit, ninja warrior. This thread should have died with its original poster in a post-birth abortion.


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 Post subject: Re: Historical Claw Weapons
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:33 pm 
Grunt
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