Belegarth
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Archer Trickery
http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=36781
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Author:  Alexander_Kai [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Archer Trickery

So I know that I'm new, and this may or may not have been done, or even discussed before (a simple search turned up nothing) so I have to ask.


What if you had 2 lines of archers. As the enemy approaches you, you have one line fire a volley at a 45 degree angle. As the enemy sees this, they naturally raise their shields to protect themselves from the volley.

Now you have the second line fire a volley parallel to the ground. Did you just take out the enemy's forward line? Can this be repeated? How would you have your infantry and skirmishers to support this?

Also, is it doable considering the occasional lack of organization with Bel?

Author:  Soo Ma Tai [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Generally our battles aren't the classic medieval line battles, it's more like a mosh pit of several gangs. The idea, though it may be sound, prolly wont work very well in Bel. I would never hold my shield over my head to protect from arrows, only move it to blck and then return to position. A really good archer can predict that movement and shoot for teh gap. But vollies most likely wont work well.

Author:  Big King Jimmy [ Mon Dec 13, 2010 6:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

It's VERY hard to aim with a volley.

Author:  Tiberius Claudius [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

The biggest event I've been to had just over 100 active fighters (not impressive compared to events that the vets go to) and there were less than 10 archers.....probably more like 6. Divide that by at least 2 teams depending on the game and the tactic, sadly, becomes even less feasible.

Perhaps it would be possible at 'Geddon, Chaos, or Rag, but it would probably take a concerted effort and a dedicated scenario battle to accomplish. Would be cool as hell though to see it happen.

On a related note, because our game is all about getting that "pop" when you get someone with your weapon, and because of our rules/the fact that we're not really fighting or trying to hurt people, the tactics and armor that would allow you to take a massive beat down and keep on murdering folks don't really apply here. This game is really about footwork, speed, range control, and getting that "pop" as opposed to brute strength, "tanking", and realism.

I like your thought process though.

Author:  Alexander_Kai [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Tiberius wrote:
On a related note, because our game is all about getting that "pop" when you get someone with your weapon,


So another flaw to this plan is that because they'd be coming from above, they might not have enough force to be a call-able hit? Or is this something that can be debated.

I understand what you're saying though. *sigh* Well, if I ever become active enough to go to the super super big event I'll try it. In the mean time I'll look up how to make a bow/arrow on my own.

Author:  Tiercel [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Alexander_Kai wrote:
Tiberius wrote:
On a related note, because our game is all about getting that "pop" when you get someone with your weapon,


So another flaw to this plan is that because they'd be coming from above, they might not have enough force to be a call-able hit? Or is this something that can be debated.

If a live arrow deflects off of you, it's a legitimate hit, no matter how light it feels to you.
3.8.4. A missile Weapon is considered to have hit if there is significant deflection of the missile head (>30 degrees). Once the missile head has significantly deflected off a target, the missile is rendered harmless.

Sometimes you may not realize you were hit, or you hear the arrow hit and see it land, but can't tell where it hit. To keep things safe, there is no significant force requirement for an arrow like there is for a sword. To make up for it, archers are allowed to call out where their arrows struck.

Author:  Tiberius Claudius [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

What Tiercel said.

I was referring more to our swung weapons as an addendum and why real tactics don't usually work in general. However, when you consider that there's no force requirement for projectiles, any dense formation of heavily armored tanks can get picked apart by things that wouldn't touch them in real life if the forces stayed the same, or if armor acted like real armor. That's why we see lots of skirmishing and small groups instead of block formations clashing into each other.

The game is just too quick and "light weight" compared to real fighting for that sort of thing to work with Bel's rules. In another game with specialized rules to try to make it as real as possible you could do it, but then you'd spend so much time thinking and talking rather than fighting that you probably wouldn't have as much fun as fight-kill-rez-repeat.

Author:  Alexander_Kai [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Tiercel wrote:
If a live arrow deflects off of you, it's a legitimate hit, no matter how light it feels to you.
3.8.4. A missile Weapon is considered to have hit if there is significant deflection of the missile head (>30 degrees). Once the missile head has significantly deflected off a target, the missile is rendered harmless.

Sometimes you may not realize you were hit, or you hear the arrow hit and see it land, but can't tell where it hit. To keep things safe, there is no significant force requirement for an arrow like there is for a sword. To make up for it, archers are allowed to call out where their arrows struck.


Gotcha.

---

So lightness of weapons and all gaming issues aside, what are some things we could do to encourage more archery?

Author:  Isk [ Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Why would we want to encourage more archery?

Archery does add some important strategy elements to the game and is worth keeping, but this game is primarily a "get in your face and hit you with stuff" kind of a sport and getting shot by an archer early in the round pretty much sucks. A few archers on the field adds spice and challenge, but there is no need to encourage more of them.

Author:  Embara Cayosin [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

outlaw helmets and you will see a surge of bowmen and boulder chuckers... (srry Fork, had to say it)
it is the helms that makes the check and balance on how many archers you have on the field.

Author:  Tiberius Claudius [ Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

But there aren't tons of helms and masks as it is. Sure, if we banned them (why?) - or let arrows go through them - you'd see more archers; but I don't think that helms alone are the reason why there're so few archers. I honestly believe it is cost and time/tech prohibitive to gather and maintain the gear. You might also consider that archers tend to be females, older (injured? out of shape?) males, or less-violent Belegrim than the run-of-the-mill melee fighter. Our game is about ferocity and you can't really do that as an archer.

my .02

Author:  Forkbeard [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Embarya, you are a **** idiot.
HELMETS do not not stop anyone from arching. In all the years I have played this game, I have never once, EVER heard an archer say, "god I hate helmets." or "****, if they are all going to wear their helmets, I'm not going to arch."
Conversly, you hear all the time" if there aren't any bows on the field, I'm not wearing this **** helemts anymore."
You are correct that helmets being arrow-proof is a check on the power of bows, but no archer ever considers this.
There would only be more archers if arrows were cheaper/free. Then they would be everywhere. The only thing that keeps people from arching is expense. Even if you have arrows anda bow and don't feel like shooting for a few battles, if you say"who watns to shoot a while" forty hands will go up
To the OP, the reason this tactic does not work is volume. If you had 100 archers firing up and 100 firing horizontal, it would work. But there is no place in the foam fighting world where there are this many archers. There never will be, archery cost too much.
This whole thread is fail.
FB

Author:  Alexander_Kai [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Forkbeard, I disagree, this thread is going down the road of fail, but it has not yet gotten there.

You are right, archery IS expensive. Granted you can get a cheap bow for 20$ and a good bow for 40$ (I actually found one that matches the pull and draw requirements perfectly) but its the arrows that are expensive. It's 5-8$ per arrow (at least at the store I go to) on top of the foam and time it takes to make an arrow (not sure on the price there). So by the time you're done you've put $100 into your quiver on top of a 40$ bow.

And let's face it, we don't have the means to make archery cheaper, and well, if we could make ourselves richer I think we already would have done it =D

You are also right about the less aggressive being the ones that do archery.

---

So, getting back from the thread drift, making this thread less fail, and among other things being coherent, I ask the following.

What are some strategies that archers would be able to do given their limited numbers? What are some problems that they run into which can be overcome with various tactics or ideas? In short, what are things archers can do to make themselves more affective and more useful tactically?

Author:  Black Cat [ Fri Dec 17, 2010 9:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Forkbeard wrote:
Embarya, you are a **** idiot.
HELMETS do not not stop anyone from arching. In all the years I have played this game, I have never once, EVER heard an archer say, "god I hate helmets." or "****, if they are all going to wear their helmets, I'm not going to arch."
Conversly, you hear all the time" if there aren't any bows on the field, I'm not wearing this **** helemts anymore."
You are correct that helmets being arrow-proof is a check on the power of bows, but no archer ever considers this.
There would only be more archers if arrows were cheaper/free. Then they would be everywhere. The only thing that keeps people from arching is expense. Even if you have arrows anda bow and don't feel like shooting for a few battles, if you say"who watns to shoot a while" forty hands will go up

QFT

The only thing that has ever stopped me from arching at an event is not having a passing bow and/or passing arrows.

Yes, helmets make archery more difficult, but it is laughable to try to say that a bunch of people wearing them is going to have any real effect on whether or not I use a bow and arrow on the field. Helmets never affected my decision to arch at events or practices I had a bow and arrows at and it won't affect my decision once I get the new archery gear made for Yestare XI. There are other places I can aim for, possibly even against fighters with barn doors, as nobody can pay attention to everything on the field 100% of the time.

Author:  Salamander [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

The best tactics is fighting with friends. Get a buddy rocking a spear/red. When they get in an opponents face, yelling green/red/whatever, your opponent will be very much distracted. That is your opportunity to shoot them. Shields-man may also do this, if they are aggressive enough to command attention.
Wait for another archer to sight, and loose. While everyone is paying attention to the first one, you can take advantage.
Have your archer buddy aim for the chest, while you aim for the legs. If you have more buddies, go ahead and aim for arms too.

A happy archer is an unnoticed archer.

Author:  Big King Jimmy [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

First of all, when I arch I love, LOVE people who wear helmets. I can shoot them in the face MULTIPLE TIMES! And since most fighters don't build a helmet with all that stable a front face, it still feels like they got shot in the face. It's great.

Second of all, I arch because I'm vain. When I shoot you in the face it's my way of saying "I SAID PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEE!" Like a teenage girl talking to her first b/f. If you're not looking at me, I WILL kill you.

Author:  Alexander_Kai [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Salamander wrote:
A happy archer is an unnoticed archer.

Big King Jimmy wrote:
First of all, when I arch I love, LOVE people who wear helmets. I can shoot them in the face MULTIPLE TIMES! And since most fighters don't build a helmet will all that stable a front face, it still feels like they got shot in the face. It's great.

Second of all, I arch because I'm vane. When I shoot you in the face it's my way of saying "I SAID PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEE!" Like a teenage girl talking to her first b/f. If you're not looking at me, I WILL kill you.


Somehow I think if Jimmy is making those kinds of noises on the battlefield then he's going to get noticed pretty * quick. =P

Author:  Salamander [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

But it is also Jimmy, so there is that to be said! I like to think of it as a sort of punishment for not paying attention, which is weird, because I like it when no one does, at least when I arch. The less aggro I get, the less likely I am to be run down!

Author:  Embara Cayosin [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Forkbeard wrote:
Stuff
FB

i just got ripped a new one by forky here...i feel like i belong now.

Author:  No'Vak [ Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Embara Cayosin wrote:
Forkbeard wrote:
Stuff
FB

i just got ripped a new one by forky here...i feel like i belong now.


nevaz

Author:  Kraesh [ Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Archer Trickery

Alexander_Kai wrote:
You are right, archery IS expensive. Granted you can get a cheap bow for 20$ and a good bow for 40$ (I actually found one that matches the pull and draw requirements perfectly) but its the arrows that are expensive. It's 5-8$ per arrow (at least at the store I go to) on top of the foam and time it takes to make an arrow (not sure on the price there). So by the time you're done you've put $100 into your quiver on top of a 40$ bow.


I'm just gonna correct you really fast here. A kiddie bow is about $20, you'll probably pull 15# at 28" with that much money. A cheap bow is about $40-$60. A decent bow is ~$100. And a good bow is >$100. My new bow cost me $160 and I love it, I hope it will last me forever, but I know I'll have to replace the limbs eventually. My old bow was a cheap fiberglass one that was $60 and barely pulled 34.75# at 28", I'll admit that it was good, but there's a difference between a bow that meets specifications and a good bow. Isk will even tell you about my bow before the fiberglass one, I made it out of PVC, it was 33# at 28", I got rid of it within a few months 'cause I didn't want it exploding in my face when I went to shoot somebody. So, just 'cause a bow pulls 35# at 28" don't assume it's a good bow.

Also, to give you an idea before you go deciding to get into archery, it's probably the most expensive fighting style in Belegarth. In my one year of fighting (as of March this year) I will have spent about $500 on archery stuff alone.

Alexander_Kai wrote:
What are some strategies that archers would be able to do given their limited numbers? What are some problems that they run into which can be overcome with various tactics or ideas? In short, what are things archers can do to make themselves more affective and more useful tactically?


As far as tactics go just do some arching and find what you're comfortable with, some like to be sneaky archers, others like Jimmy and I like to be annoying and make people pay attention or die (it's even more fun to make them chase you into a charlie foxtrot situation), just do what you enjoy more.

[/rant]

-Kraesh

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