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a sheild strapped to the back, cheap or legitamet strategy?
Poll ended at Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:50 pm
yes 70%  70%  [ 16 ]
no 30%  30%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 23
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 Post subject: how do you feel of shield strapped...
PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 7:50 pm 
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i plan to go as a spear man and see how that works, but i plan to have a sheild strapped to my back, more pro or con in this shield tactic? also any tips and warnings will be much appreciated. and in a big event how would you find me to be most useful?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:22 pm 
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I think it is a legitimate tactic. Now, if you specifically set your shield up like a backback, I think that is cheap (like some of the dual-wielding flail users who stay low to the ground, making it difficult to hit them without hitting them on the head).

Obryn is a perfect example of the good, legitimate use of the a shield on the back. Davit (in the past) is an example of the cheesy use of a backback shield and dual-flail fighting.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:11 pm 
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I don't think that it's a cheap tactic so much as a issue of utility. From my experience, a spearman is concentrated on what is in front of him, and its up to his rear guard to guard what is behind him. With that in mind, it would be good to introduce the main enemy of spearmen, missle weapons. In that regard I would suggest a buckler over a shield. The buckler will offer more protection for all such attempts, especially with lots of practice.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:41 pm 
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Strapped - backpack - cheap
Strapped - strap over shoulder - good (Obryn/Kegg)

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 10:49 pm 
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I only use a spear and have since day one, so this is my take on it. Going turtleback while using a spear would be tough business. Having a large shield behing you would hinder your pullback and bust your elbows on the recoil. I'd recommend the use of a buckler.

By the way, your poll is unclear. You asked cheap or legitimate strategy. And your answers are yes or no. Might wanna fix that.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:51 am 
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we were talking about that at choas wars 8, and the only thing is don't get mad if someone bashes you. cause if you just got in a heated fight and turn around and you see a shield and step into it. that is the only down fall i could see.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:35 am 
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i agree... if your just carrying it over your shoulder cuz your archer or the like, then theres nothing wrong with it at all. but if you have it on your back with the intent to stop shots while you continue on fighting, thats not cheap, thats cheating...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:59 am 
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I'm also for the whole buckler thing, as it is more mobile but if I didn't have one, I'd go with the shield on the back. The only practical use I'd see is blocking the occasional jav or arrow that you were lucky enough to spot headed your way. But then there's reaction time. Are you going to be able to spot, spin, duck, and then spin back and be ready to fight in enough time?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:48 pm 
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Alright, a shield strapped to the back in any manner is not cheating. Here is why:
1. We try to go for some realism in our game
2. In real life, any advantageous tactic on the battle field keeps you alive and is heavily encouraged.
3. Strapping a shield solidly (backpack style) to your back is an advantageous tactic in Belegarth and it keeps people alive.
Conclusion: Strapping a shield to the back gives you an advantage that would be used in real battle situation.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 1:02 pm 
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Personally I like the sheild on my back. I only use it when I fight with a bow. I like it because if there is a line charge on my unit I can drop the bow and fight sword and board. I will run away all day if it is just a couple of fighters comming after me, but a line charge is totally different.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 5:50 pm 
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I think the backpack shield thing is legit. If they crouch low, give the shield a goot boot! :devil:


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 6:09 pm 
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I agree that it is a legit use IF it is used in a manner that doesn't take advantage of the "no legal head shots from melee weapons" rule.

I've seen two people use a backpack shield and basically run around really low to the ground and flail about wildly. It isn't safe for them because I (as well as many others) don't like blasting people in the face and because that is the only target I have most of the time, I hesitate. I think it is dangerous for the user and makes their opponents hesitate for fear of delivering a head shot.

Now, if they fight normal (i.e arch, spear or 2-sword) with a backpack shield, that is perfectly fine with me.

So, the spirit in which it is used is whether I like it or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:15 pm 
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And what happens if you take two red shots to a shield strapped to your back? Can't exactly drop it when it "breaks".


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 11:32 pm 
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i guess i'll just have to get used to doing a quick drop, maybe i can design the strap with that purpose in mind, also how can i fix a mistake i made on the poll?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 9:37 am 
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chances are though if you cant avoid two red shots to your back, you wont evade a third.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 6:45 pm 
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Here's a good warning for ya....

Watch out for shield kicks!

Or how about this one.....

Grabbing a shield or weapon is NOT a grapple, so watch out for being suddenly pulled around by someone in full armor!

Or even this one...

Red/Class 2 weapons need to hit pretty solidly for it to count, so be prepared to have people swinging MUCH harder at you back shield than they would at a non-shielded back.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:31 pm 
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I would love to see someone on the field with a shield back-packed... I'll kick them and bash them, and like Freyson said, I'll pull them around like a little doggie!

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:33 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:54 pm 
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Um. Yes? It is a cheap or legitimate strategy. Definitely.

I don't have much of a problem with it. If you're going to have two flails and therefore no defense it only makes sense that you be able to have some kind of protection somewhere. If I'm wearing a backshield and you want to grab it in full armor fine. If you can for some reason catch me wearing full armor and I am not, feel free to grab me anyway. If you don't break anything I don't care.

Someone mentioned Davit, who used to use a backshield while using two flails. He did not (that I can ever recall) fight like a turtle with it. He just got really good at timing his spin moves so that people always hit his shield.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2005 8:21 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 3:31 pm 
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Using a backshield is totally legit and IMHO very intelligent. If both arms are busy with weapons, why not have a shield at least somewhere on your body. True you could use a buckler. However a backshield protects a more vital area and covers more of it. As for kicking/checking the backshied. These things are allowed by the rules. However for all the talk I've never seen one kicked. Now bashing a backshield on the other hand would probably have you coming from the rear quadrant which would be illegal. As for grabbing it, go ahead, it is also allowed however it probably wouldn't work much better for you than trying it on someone with their shield in their hand. ie. they will probably hit you with their weapon while you're doing it. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:03 pm 
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Personally, I feel that if a shield is strapped onto any part of the body excluding the hand, the resultant object is better classified as "armor" and not as a shield. Really, what is the difference between strapping a shield on your back and wearing the back half of a curiass?

Were I to design things, a backpack shield, or even a buckler, any shield which is strapped on and doesnt prevent the active use of one arm to wield an offensive weapon would be "armor" under the rules. Shields provide more protection than armor, so you should have to give up the ability to wield two weapons or a two handed weapon in order to enjoy that defensive advantage in my book.

But hey, the rules arent written that way, so do what you will. Personally I'll scoff if I see it though.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 4:39 pm 
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Are we not trying to recreate medieval combat? didn't they sometimes wear shields on their backs? ?:(

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:21 pm 
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A problem i have found as a new person (10 months) (as it relates to this topic) is you can NOT go by the rules alone.

You must take a poll of what everyone thinks and then try to decide if it is ok for you to do, even if it is legal within the rules.

PLus you have to decide what % of acceptance is ok with you. Knowing that you might offend what ever percentage of people, when you take the field, with a legal item.

Example I had no idea that a Flail was viewed any deferent than any other weapon, The first event i went to (i had been in only a few weeks) , I noticed Attila killing everybody he went up against. , Soooooo me said, i want a big shild and a flail and i want to fight like that bad *. Soo i go to work to make me the best flail in history of the game, But in picking up the flail i * off Tons of people in DD. They dont respect no flail playing band . (sorry old song)

Other Examples: armor (how soon how much) , helm, what size shield and what weight of weapons just to name a few.

This is the same thing, It is legal but you may get smashed and called names if you do it, and someone you have never met who lives 700 miles away thinks your cheating but it is totaly legal in the rules.

Does any one think that we should accept every rule with respect on and off the field?

And that we should make every effort to change the rules to the better ment of the game if needed (out law the flail if thats what everybody wants) (use a time put in limit on armor) but in the end go by the Book. Respect the rules that are in effect.

Thrax

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I have reduced the size of my shield, fight with a sword and fight in no armor about 60% of the time trying to make everyone happy.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:29 pm 
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pah! Thrax you should be able to fight any way you want as long as you follow the rules. If you want to fight with a giant shield and flail-do it! those cranky peeps who complain should view it as a means to get better.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:47 pm 
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i would never mean to bash someone from behind. It could happen, i don't think it ever did. just something to keep inmind

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:34 am 
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Peregrine wrote:
Are we not trying to recreate medieval combat? didn't they sometimes wear shields on their backs? ?:(


I dont believe so. Shields were stored on a back for possible in-hand use later, not placed on a back in order to be of defensive use there. Some shields designed for use in the hand were also supported by a strap over the head and shoulders, (thus facilitating their storage behind the back). They obviously had some defensive use while there, but that was not the purpose.

Shields are heavier and less strong than body armor when immobile. There is no reason IRL to use one in that fashion in place of another layer of body armor. The reason that the rules of this game give shields massive defensive advantage over armor is because of how much more effective shields are IRL when manipulated by the arm wielding them. Think of the difference between a block and a parry with a sword. A thin weapon like a rapier can parry larger, heavier weapons, but if you simply blocked with it, it wouldnt withstand the blow.

Same idea with most shields. They were constructed in such a way, with their perimeter shapes and curvature to be able to deflect blows when used actively, not simply stuck in the way as an immobile, impenetrable barrier. Viking shields, for example were constructed in such a way as to be lighter than most other shields out there, thus easier to use for the duration of a battle. The trade off was that they were strong enough only when the grain of the wood was at a different angle than the incoming blade. They painted designs on their shields, at first to hide the grain of the wood from the attacker. This plus active manipulation of their shield was the only way their shields could perform their desired purpose. I think we can say that the Vikings were somewhat successful militarily.

Anyway, Peregrine, there's your longwinded answer. If we were trying to simulate medieval combat, a shield strapped on a back would give less protection than a shield manipulated by an arm. It might give the same amount of protection as oh, say, body armor.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:35 pm 
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Palantir, your only problem with all of that is, based on the rules you are dead wrong. A person can wear a shield on their back all they want, and it would count as just that: a shield.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 1:44 pm 
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I agree. I also think I stated exactly that at least twice.

The rules dont exclude using a sheild in that way. The rules dont exclude a choice few other kinds of cheese either.

I'm not stating what the rules are, I'm just giving my opinion in a post polling for opinions. I'm also just one guy. Take my opinion for exactly what it's worth. Note also that V'hil disagrees with me (mostly) and I happen to respect V'hil. Just because I have my opinion doesnt believe I think people that dont share it are bad people.

It just means I disagree with them on this point :-P


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:12 pm 
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palantir, while you have a point, for this game/sport this falls into the "becomes to complicated to be realistic". I mean, if we wanted to be realistic about everything then we would have to check and decide each piece of equipement on an individual scale what it would and would not be capable of. For shields to fall under both regular shield rules and armor rules would be just rediculous. I dont even know how it would work (not that i care anyway so please dont tell me). Every now and then things just have to be sacrificed for the simplicity of the game. But yes, you do have a point.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:54 pm 
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My shield isn't so much a back shield as a shoulder shield. I actually started doing it after seeing a documentary of shield use by Greek phalanxes. They would have a strap around their shoulder/neck, and a strap around their wrist, and it would both help them hold their spears steady as well as provide additional protection.

Now, I'm not strapping my wrist into my shield, but there was no doubt that shields slung over the bearer's shoulder were used for protection, not just for storage.

I'd say my shield protects me as well or better than a buckler, particularly after years of practice with it. First of all, it passively defends my left side and effectively deters both archers and backstabbers. Second, it can be moved around in a pinch if I need to defend against (for instance) front or rear. It does all of this without being nearly as encumbering or interactive as a buckler under the same circumstances. I can't count the number of times it's saved my * on the field.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 9:55 pm 
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yeah my shield is designed in the manner of a greek phalanx, the sides of the shield were purposley cut out to allow mobility to the wearer while its strapped to the back, and im trying to find a way to fix the strap to allow a quick switch from the back shield to an arm shield. does anyone have a problem with that? also, what the hell is back packing? and sorry if the poll was unclear it was suppossed to say yes legitament or no cheap strategy. sorry for the mix up, its my first poll and i dont know how to fix it

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:22 am 
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So you mean to tell me I can wear a shield on my shoulder?I was told that was illegal and my whole unit is viking with a spattering of celt and yes we love to fight in traditional standards. The norse did wear their round shield slung over a shoulder because it was easier to carry and protected them from a back hit.

on their shields. The norse shield was more or less thin layers of wood going at differant angles to make it lighter and stronger, much like a more dense version of modern day plywood. Save for the truly massive strength fighters it is very hard to shatter a good shield like these. Mind you a good spear does make them look like pincushions.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 10:24 am 
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You can wear your shield however you want to.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2005 11:19 am 
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Necronos wrote:
I would love to see someone on the field with a shield back-packed... I'll kick them and bash them, and like Freyson said, I'll pull them around like a little doggie!


3.5.4.3. A person may not Bash or Check an opponent's rear quadrant. Shield pushing or incidental contact in an opponent?s rear quadrant is allowed.

hate to see you thrown off the feild for doing such.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:28 am 
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That's the cheapest part of the deal. No bashing or whaterever to the rear quad. If they are wearing a shield back there shouldn't that mean the are prepared to be attacked on that quad?

That rule right there used in this situation is what REALLY makes backpack shields so cheap. At an event I was chasing down a backpack shield and spear guy and the only shot I had was boogie board backpack or head. And then after 2 of his teammates saw me I was being chased and the guy slowed down as I sped up, then he was in my way of running away and accidentally had shield to shield contact that knocked him flat, he then started * about no shield bashing to the back.

So all the rules about shield bashing and shield kicking are out the window because they choose to put thier shield on thier back. *!

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 10:30 am 
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I definately agree with the sentiment.


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 2:03 pm 
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Thats totally a safety issue. To use Obryn as an example, lets say I decided to kick his back shield (I can't think of a good reason to do this, but we're pretending here.) as he decides to whip his shield around to get an arrow thats coming at his front.

I have just managed to snap kick somebody in the back. Which will likely bruise the kickees back, if not do substantially more damage. If you don't believe this type of thing can happen just ask any guy whos taken a boot to the groin that was intended as a shield kick. I know I have....

Or, lets say he doesn't move his shield, you have now given someone whiplash and/or a pretty nasty faceplant.

So, kick ing a back shield is a horrible and illegal idea.

The same can be said for shield bashing someone from behind, back shield or no. There is no way to see something like that coming and the resulting face plant is likely to bloody a nose at best, break somebodies neck at worst.

And I don't feel like having to respond to a broken neck at a practice or event.

So shield bashing someone from behind is a horrible and illegal idea.

Thanks for playing the common sense game, hope to see you again soon.

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The tools to kill are always around. All depends on how much you need to work for it and how much you want it. -Scion


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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 3:13 pm 
Underling
Underling
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Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:04 am
Posts: 90
Location: O'Fallon., MO
Well what kind of common sense thing are we talking about? The realistic common sence where you'd just crank them in the head to kill them or the cheese common sense where * wear a shiled on thier back?

Well to you back shields may be excluded from anything that can be done to a normal shield because of "safety issues"
to me it's a CHEAPNESS issue especially the florintiene flails and back shield. It don't get no worse than that. Thankfully not too many people do it.

If someone dosen't want to get bashed in the back or kicked from behind, PUT THE SHIELD IN THE FRONT!!!!! that simple.

What about grabbing the back shield is that allowed or did someone that wears one of those stupid things deside we couldn't do that either? Or are backpackers abouve everyone else and keeping looking for things that the rest of the fighters can't do to them?

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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 3:13 pm 
Toadie
Toadie

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 8:29 am
Posts: 103
I agree completely. That's not what I'm saying. Kicking/bashing from behind is illegal . . . but the shielded back thing can be used in a very cheap manner.

I think that the best possible solution would be to count a shield worn on the back in the same manner one would treat armor. If they're wearing other armor underneath, maybe allow it to count as two "points" of armor. But having this mostly invulnerable thing strapped to your back can be used in a very cheap manner. I think that some people use it in a way that is safe, realistic, and acceptable, but others don't.

How much safer is it to smash somebody in the back real hard with a red weapon in order to go through the shield? That has just as much potential to hurt somebody if the sword swung is heavy enough as a kick or a shield bash would.


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