Belegarth

Situation 1: Shoebob the Unsettled is fighting Hengist the Uncomfortable, who is armored with leather bracers. Shoebob's first strike connects to the upper part of Hengist's left arm, but before Hengist can put his arm behind his back to register the damage, Shoebob's second strike hits Hengist's armored left forearm. Should it be called as death?

Situation 2: Fleascratcher the Wretched strikes Malliope the Fermented in the juncture where the torso meets the leg. I do not know the correct anatomical term, but it's that muscle line dividing thigh from groin. Is it a torso shot (death) or a limb shot (gimpy!)?

Situation 3: * the Nauseating and Redbeard the Freckled charge one another. * swings his blades and attempts to shield kick Redbeard's shield, but Redbeard moves at the last instant to block the incoming sword attacks, causing * to kick Redbeard in the chest. How (or should?) * be punished?

1) yes, the arm was already "gone"
2) torso, it is always the higher damage value
3) he shouldn't be reprimanded, but he should be told of the dangers of shield kicking, as should Redbeard, he did cause himself to be kicked in the chest, after all.

Exacto!

perfect on all 3 calls

Sit #1 - Can be argued either way. I would put it down to a time issue. Since Hengist didn't have time to get the arm back and Shoebob had to see the armor, I'd let it slide if only the arm was taken. (This is due to the wonderful past arguemnts I have heard that would let the armor count.) If Hengist tried to take the armor after the arm was behind the back I would call him dead.

Sit #2 - If Malliope does not take anything I call him dead. If he takes the leg I talk to him later about where the leg ends and torso begins. If he asks what he should take I call him dead. The minimum surface is 2.5" in diameter and that leaves a bit of confusion from perspective of exactly where the force was felt. Let the target determine the hit and step in if there is a problem.

Sit #3 - To Debuenzo and RavenHeart - Pass whatever you are on over here so we can all share! Love ya both but your answers are plain insane!!! * swings in a direction which gets the shield to move out of the way of the kick he is planning and that is fine?!?!? *!?!?! If it is actually an accident then * should sit out until Redbeard is back on the field, or at least one battle, whichever is longer. If Redbeard goes home then * is off for the day. If Redbeard cannot come back due to injury, then * is off until he comes back unless Redbeard says otherwise. * **** up and kicked someone and to let it slide any other way will make more 'accidents' happen. There is nothing wrong with kicking a shield, there is something very wrong with kicking a person. The logic that it was Redbeard's fault he got kicked since he moved the shield is the same logic which says it is ok to shield bash someone in the kidneys because they turned around, hit someone in the teeth because they ducked, or punch someone because they got to close during a swing.

1) Dead, for simplicity's sake.
2) Dead. Torso is inclusive of connecting joints.
3) I do agree with Freyson that the kick is in NO way Redbeard's fault. However, I would only step in if it became an incident (argument/injury), or if * has a history of problems. Regardless, I would caution him afterwards against shield kicking until he gains more control, or learns the correct way to do so.

Yanno, regardless of the calls as a herald, I must say that I have this rather unnerving urge to meet each of these terribly interestingly named individuals.

I would call the first as the others have. Arm gone, equates death.

The second... I have a feeling that any shot that close to the * is going to cause a lot of the male fighters to lie down anyway. Man, that was close!!

The third... man, I hate shield kicks for that reason. First, check to make sure everyone's okay. I hope to heck that * stops, having realized that he's nailed Redbeard. I would consider calling a mini-Hold to check on the two. Then again, maybe I'm too much a safety nut.

how can you reprimand him for a missed shield kick....

ravenheart wrote: "3) he shouldn't be reprimanded, but he should be told of the dangers of shield kicking, as should Redbeard, "

it's similar if someone leans into a headshot....it's not really the receiver or the giver's fault...it's just a part of the game...

1. He takes the arm, then the torso (arm was gone).
2. He takes death, because that was the *worse* hit.
3. I've had this happen to me before, or people kick as I'm moving my shield. It happens; unless they're doing it a lot (or hurting people), there is no need to punish this person. It sucks, but it happens.

debuenzo wrote:how can you reprimand him for a missed shield kick....

Becase in this case it wasn't a missed shield kick. It was a kick in the chest. A kick in the chest is against the bloody rules.

In this case the illegal chest kick looks like an accident, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a rules violation. It is important to at the least reprimand * for the kick, and make it clear that this is an unacceptable action. Not doing so is avoiding routine heralding. This is how we get sloppy, as both fighters and heralds.

I have taken missed shield kicks so hard that if I hadn't been wearing armor, I would have come home with broken ribs. Literally. As it was, I just had bloody chainmail impressions all over my chest, through my padding. With people running around our fields in heavy steel toed and/or combat boots, missing a shield kick is NOT an acceptable thing to do, and needs to be very strongly cautioned against. I realize that it's an accident, and I'm not saying punish the person, but "he moved his shield" is not a laugh it off, acceptable way to call that. Shields are mobile objects. They are supposed to be moved. Swinging wide and kicking at the same time is dangerous as hell because most of the time, that shield, is going out to catch the swing, and foot subsequently plants in chest.

It's like saying that when I run a redlight and total someone else's car, it's not my fault because they moved their car into my way.

For the record, I was * and I did take myself off the field for several battles. Every shieldkicker knows the risks involved with the manuever and should be prepared to suffer consequences when they miss!

Was Freyson "Redbeard"?

Yeah, if missing a shield in a battle is such a discipline problem and safety debacle than I have two questions:

How have we all survived this long?

Why aren't they outlawed?

I don't like being kicked, sometimes I don't carry a shield and there's no chance of a missed shield kick hitting me (unless they are kicking at another combatant, which may be a huge problem for everybody everywhere) and when I do carry a shield and get it kicked at I'm aware of this possibility. The game's not sterile, quit acting like it is.

Yes, Freyson was Redbeard for what it's worth.

This game has survived this long because it's fun and people are willing to put in the effort to run it in their own time for no profit, just to play.

Shield kicks aren't outlawed because they are also fun, and can be done safely. It's the attitude that a herald doesn't have to make a call on unsafe kicks that bothers me. And in a small, pedantic way, calling a kick that hits the body a "missed shield kick" instead of "kick in the chest/arm/leg" bothers me as well. A reprimand has to be made. Here, it's generally a sliding scale based on the severity of the kick. And unsafe kicks are very, very rare.

Izareth, you take personal responsibility for whether or not you make yourself a kickable target. But the kicker takes the greater amount of personal responsibility. If all you can kick safely is a tower shield held by someone who hardly moves it, then that's all you should kick. If you're one of those rare types who can kick a moving buckler, kick it! But we aren't talking about this from the player's perspective, we're going from the Herald's. And, when a rules and safety violation is made we have to deal with it. Yes, accidents happen, and in general we know the people on our home fields and can go "that was *, he'd never do that on purpose! Man, he must feel bad." but what we have to say is "*, off the field until Redbeard feels good enough to fight again!"

Now, here's another question:
How may of you would change your call on the kick if a gaggle of, say, 8 people were watching and thinking of joining Belegarth? Would you want potential newbs to see a Herald doing nothing about this publicly?

RavenHeart wrote:3) he shouldn't be reprimanded, but he should be told of the dangers of shield kicking, as should Redbeard, he did cause himself to be kicked in the chest, after all.

I didn't reprimand anyone in my response, I did, however, pull both fighters to discuss why they need to use extreme caution. Nor did I lay any blame on anyone, education is a great tool to be used, and as I would assume this is not a regular problem then I stand by "education" of the risks to be the correct response. If the problem was recurring then I agree and more drastic measures are needed. I also see where someone says the kick was illegal, that is not true, if the kick was intended to hit Redbeard then yes, but if the intended target was the shield, it isn't a legality issue, it is a safety issue, once again, unless a repeat issue, education is the best answer. I applaud Mawr for removing himself from the field, I do the same thing to myself if I make an error.

If you were new and thinking of joining wouldn't you rather see the marshall being respectful to the individuals involved in the incident, after all. (ensuring Redbeard is OK, and letting * know that to kick a shield while attaking the other side is unsafe) I see no one who has a "do nothing" response to the kick, everyone seems to agree that SOMETHING needs to get done, but what should get done is where we are disagreeing.

Honestly though Freyson, I think you could have withstood the kick and still blocked both weapons, you are an excellent fighter (from what I have seen) Note: this is not saying I think it is OK to do this to someone who can deal with it, just that I think Freyson could have.

Okay, I call it a "missed shield kick" because kicks to the body are not allowed in this game. Also because it was described as such by the senario.

As for pulling the accidental shieldkicker off the field, it's a case by case basis. If it was intentional, than the person needs to go away and do something else. Unarmed strikes to the body are not part of our game.

It was an accident on the field, they happen all the time.

To answer the posed question, anyone looking injured after a mishap should be tended to, the people would see that. Anyone looking into joining would be informed that it is a full contact sport, and these things happen on rare occasions. Everybody here signs a waiver to that effect without blinking an eye. I talk to parents at length often about the safety risks, because I cannot eliminate those risks nomatter how I play or Herald. I can only hope the atmosphere is such that no one tries to hurt anybody, and I do work toward that every week, and every event I run.

Well Izareth I just feel any missed shield kick should be punished. However, the severity of the punishment should vary according to circumstances. Illegal contact is illegal contact is illegal contact, regardless of whether or not it was intentional or accidental. And the wronged party should always have the opportunity to "decline the penalty" as it were.

Baron Mawr y Drewllyd wrote:Well Izareth I just feel any missed shield kick should be punished. However, the severity of the punishment should vary according to circumstances. Illegal contact is illegal contact is illegal contact, regardless of whether or not it was intentional or accidental. And the wronged party should always have the opportunity to "decline the penalty" as it were.

On that note, do we have established guidelines for penalization? I would not call "doing nothing" an acceptible form of heralding, but anything beyond that is seemingly up to the herald at hand. A lot of the cross-talk in here is simply people having different degrees of "penalization" ranging from verbal warning to sitting out...

Just a thought, but I think an interesting one. About a month ago there was a discussion here about kicking a buckler. Unfortunately the forum pruning took it away (I talked to Winfang about this and he is stopping it). In the discussion a person kicked a small buckler shield sucessfully, yet some people said he should be kicked off of the field for it. While here people are saying there is nothing wrong with missing a big shield. I find that interesting. Something done sucessfully should be punished while something done unsucessfully should be ignored. The argument used in the buckler example was that the person might have missed the shield. Here the shield is bigger and WAS missed. In the buckler case the kicker was cautioned about possible misses and told not to do it again. Yet here the target is cautioned about moving his shield. To coin a phrase... WHAT THE FU**!?!?! If you at all think that someone should be reprimanded for suceeding in kicking a 12' shield, how much more should a person be reprimanded for MISSING a big shield?

Kindof a safety thing. I know Vo'Kor has missed a kick before on my Medium punch shield and sent me to the ground. *see sub note 1*
But for a small punch, The rules say you "can" kick a shield, but something like kickin an itty bitty buckler is a bit too unsafe in my eyes. Where-as kickin at a Bigger shield.... well... It was my fault for moving the shield, not his fault for kicking me.



*1- I personally think it was funny as hell and Yes... I did block his mace with the shield instead......

Kicking a BUCKLER? UNSAFE!!!
There's a big difference in my eyes between a 12 inch buckler and a 48 inch shield. Successful or not, a kick to a buckler is dangerous, and shouldn't be allowed to occur.

"Softcore"
Don't kick my buckler

"Hardcore"
A shield is a shield is a shield.


At what point does a buckler become a shield? 12" 14"? So if the person's hieght divided by the length of their arm multiplied by the coefficient of bucklerdome = you can't kick my shield anymore... Check your math!

/difference in opinion

From Dictionary.com...

buck?ler n.
1. A small, round shield either carried or worn on the arm.

A buckler is always a shield.

Shield, schmield. Fine. Miss that kick, regardless of the size of the shield in question, be prepared to sit your * down for at least one fight. Again, as pointed out before, it's a case by case basis, but that steel toed boot to someone's gut, however innocently intended for the shield, is a flat out no-no.

Finally! Someone gets it!

Successfully connected shield kick = good
Missed shield kick = very very bad

Right! As long as done sucessfully, there's no reason to step in. However, that still brings up what should be done.

A casual agreeance that missing a shield kick is punishable by death (waivable by the kickee) really does make the most sense. (Missing a buckler kick might need something more severe, IMO.)

I hate bots

As with anything in our game, shield kicking should be done in a safe manner. I know when I shield kick, I kick them really hard. I also have the control to stop or slow a kick should the opponent move his equipment out of the way. If you don't have the control to perform a manouver safely, then you shouldn't be doing it.

In conclusion-
1. The guys is dead, the armor was removed with the arm on the first blow.

2. The guys should take death on such a questionable shot.

3. Talk to the kicker, let them know that they should be able to prvent contact on a missed kick.

Bot necroed thread guys. Check original post date. The bots post has been deleted. Lil bastards keep showing up and drudging things up out of the archives.

ROFL-I usually check them dates but I didn't even think of it this time. Oh well.

So there is a fighter in my realm who will intentionally open up their shield on shield kicks, making the kicker miss the shield and hit his body. He IS fully aware of the dangers involved, choosing not to do so in some situations. At first I would stop whatever I was doing to make sure he was ok, and he would kill me. Once I realized this was intentional on his part, I stopped doing that. My point to all of this is that I would be P.O.ed if a herald punished me for this situation, and that it would be innapropriate to punish the other individual for his choice.

I don't wear armor, but when I get hit by two opponents in the same arm at the same time, I can't help but think (as I call myself dead) that I should really still be alive because the intent of the rule seems to be that the swing goes through the arm, as if it's not even there, unless someone goofs up and takes their dead arm out of the behind-the-back tuck and someone takes it off a second time. To save the argument- I call myself dead, but always wondered what the original intent was...

If I'm hit on the inner regions on a border between a limb and a torso, I take it as a kill shot, usually. I understand that hitting "both" areas means it's a kill shot, but unless it's an unusually good hit, I usually don't get enough sting from a shot to really pinpoint where it landed anyway.

I've baited someone into attempting a shield kick before, and let them swing wildly while I took a kill shot. I don't think I'll have that opportunity often. At Rhun in June I struck a fellow in the chest with my open palm while I was trying for his weapon- had he not taken my shoulder at the same time I would have called myself dead, but that's because I'm trying to hold myself to a high standard of self-control. I wouldn't really expect anyone to do the same. At the other extreme of the spectrum are some like a fighter I met who decided it was OK to strike people illegally if it helps him follow up with a kill shot. Because there is no hard and fast penalty in the rules for this, he doesn't see a problem with it.

I agree with Soo Ma Tai- kicking the chest should be prevented / remedied. What to do about it depends on the attitude, intent, and recklessness of the person involved.