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 Post subject: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:18 am 
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So I've seen quite a few archers who use a sort of "intimidation" method of aproaching someone, whether it's a skirmish flank, or a shield wall. With their bow at full draw clearly within the illegal limit to fire the bow at full draw.

I guess the reason they do this is to intimidate or push back an approaching attack. Now my question is should I call them out and remind them to half their draw regardless if they intend to fire at them or simply intimidate the person into backing off?

If that bow somehow misfires or they accidentally let it slip, you are looking at a full draw 15ft shot to the face...

I herald a bit when I'm not doing archery due to health limitations, so I am familiar with the role an archer plays on the field, and often step out to herald and see this sort of tactic alot.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:09 pm 
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I do not believe that what they are doing is against the letter of the BoW, but probably the spirit. What they are doing is essentially the same as someone who feints a shot at someone's skull, hoping they'll open their shield up, then hitting them elsewhere. Not a way to make friends.

You could also argue that their hand might slip while in the full-draw position, inadvertently releasing the arrow at full draw, but that's pretty tenuous reasoning.

I would definitely have a talk with them. You probably shouldn't be pretending to do anything that would be illegal if you actually followed through with the action.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:33 pm 
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This may sound like favoritism, but I use the "can I trust them" method for heralding this situation.

There are some archers out here in the West that I know can be trusted to not be firing at full-draw from 4 feet away.

Joe-newblet the 3rd, however, I have no idea.

If it is someone that I know isn't going to **** it up, I may just yell a reminder "Half-draw within 15 feet", so that everyone knows.

If it is Joe-newblet the 3rd, I'm going to get his attention in any way I can and remind him, loudly of the rules.

I also do this when I'm not heralding, but seeing an unsafe situation.

We had a player at a local practice that was full draw and about 5 feet away from someone's face and aiming right it. I was dead, but I yelled at him anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Phoxly wrote:
If that bow somehow misfires or they accidentally let it slip, you are looking at a full draw 15ft shot to the face...


If it's 15ft, they're in the clear since that's the line for full/half draw :-)

I've done this as an archer before to stop a line from charging for that split second until my line can regroup. Sure, it isn't going to get me any friends on the other side, but when the scenario changes and they're on my side, they might see it differently. It also stops working after a while, just like that person who feints to the head constantly hoping to open up another shot.

Also, half draw isn't 14" with many of the bows on the field...I haven't done the math to know exactly where that line is, but I know with recurve bows at least, the half draw (power) is closer to the 18-20" mark in my assumption.

And that half power is what we're aiming for in how I read the 15ft rule, not a pure half distance shot...maybe I'm wrong in that case, but that's another point this thread could hash out possibly?

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3.8.2. A half draw or throw for Class 4 Weapons under a range of 15 feet is required.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:18 pm 
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I usually gauge my half draw as halfway between 28" and my bow's natural resting position. So like 22"?

I might have it measured at the archery store just to get a better idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:19 pm 
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What would you say to someone running up to you on the field with their fist * back as though to punch you? Then at the last second they hit you with a weapon in their other hand?

I don't think threatening someone's safety to gain a tactical advantage should be allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:18 pm 
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With a fist in the air, it's obviously going to land on the first person in the way. As an archer I could just as easily be aiming above your head at someone further away where full draw is legal even though it may appear its being aimed at you.

Remember, arrows are RANGED weapons. If you're right on top of the archer, they can't fire on you anyways. And if they do, they're risking personal injury from the nock on a bounce back. I've had an arrow nock catch me under the eye on a shield bounce back from half draw. I don't think anyone who is arching would purposely shoot at something close where their target (or themselves) would be at risk.

Maybe instead of letting just anyone pick up a bow and arrows, we need to institute some sort of restrictions. Like they have to have been heralding/fighting/involved for at least 1 year and understand the rules and why they're there.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:10 pm 
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I was going to point out that if the archer and their opponent are 15 feet away, that is the line for full draw striking distance. The archer could fire and it would be perfectly legal, a * move perhaps but perfectly legal.

I am with Rev on this one. I really think this is a situational thing. There is nothing in the BoW that limits a archer to WHEN he/she can pull an arrow to full draw versus half draw. The only limitation is when they can fire at full draw versus half draw. As an archer I use the full draw method mentioned in the OPs first post all the time. Does that mean I fire an arrow at someone's face at the 15 foot line all the time? Absolutely not, I rarely do it at all in fact. It is a good way to get people to back off though. I do not think any marshal should call any archer dead simply for full drawing within 15 feet. Adrenaline does funny things. How Rev does it though would work, loudly point out "Half draw within 15 feet." Simple, easy, effective and everyone still has fun.

Something I really want you to ask yourself is this; Do you really think an experienced archer is going to let an arrow slip at any point in time? Distance regardless, do you really think they are going to simply let an arrow leave their bow without them doing it on purpose? Misfires were also mentioned, misfires are what happens when the arrow becomes un-knocked and the bow fires a blank shot. Misfires would not affect this in any way. The only thing a misfire does is potentially cause damage to the bow and to the wielder.

Ok, so what about Joey newfighter. How many newer archers have you seen on the field that aren't scared **** to be out there? Almost every single newer archer i have seen step onto the field rarely pulls their bow to full draw regardless of the distance. They are generally to timid in the first place. And even in the case that they are scared out of their mind, i still think the approach of yelling the rule across the field is the better way to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2011 11:15 pm 
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In Khador we make people fight for preferably a year before arching or fighting with a red so they can learn the rules and control their swings


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:32 am 
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Saxavarius wrote:
In Khador we make people fight for preferably a year before arching or fighting with a red so they can learn the rules and control their swings


We have a very similair rule in Shannara as well. The fighter must be at least 15 (our starting age is 12), must have been with us for 6 months (a full season basically), and must own their own equipment. None of the archers in our realm like to loan out their bows, arrows perhaps but never bows. Doing this has always worked for us. It ensures that anyone who wants to arch has put in the time to learn the rules of the sport and of archery. Anyone who is willing to put the time and money into archery is usually willing to follow the rules to make sure they can use their stuff on the field, after all, being an archer isn't exactly cheap.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:09 am 
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Eovery fighter should know the rules and this wait for a year stuff cries of leveling up something we don't have the sport of Belegarth I don't like having to wait to be a level 4 paladin before I unlock arching. Seems proper training in arching not time in service should dictate the use of long range missile weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:38 am 
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Orokusan wrote:
Eovery fighter should know the rules and this wait for a year stuff cries of leveling up something we don't have the sport of Belegarth I don't like having to wait to be a level 4 paladin before I unlock arching. Seems proper training in arching not time in service should dictate the use of long range missile weapons.


Normally proper training and such will take 6 months from the start of playing. You could probably push this up a little bit, but 6months will show that your hand made gear will last, or won't last. It will also show that you understand and have retained all the little rules in the game. Kind of like the other thread that had an archer calling shots to the foot on the ground as a leg shot. Newbie archers is just a bad idea...on many levels.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:43 am 
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Well stated and noted. Our unit has several members wanting to be the archers and I shall keep your counsel in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:49 am 
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We never considered what we do as a "leveling up" technique. It's a system we put in place to ensure that those who want to partake in the most dangerous part of the sport have the knowledge needed to do it safely. Putting any brand new fighter who has never fought in the sport before on the field with a bow and arrows is a bad bad idea. Thor said it, 6 months is a good average time to learn the rules and know the little things of the sport.

Plus I have never seen a brand new fighter turn out a set of completely safe passing arrows. Most new archers will mess up their arrows for a variety of reasons. Nothing against them, but it does take time to learn how to build proper, safe, legal arrows.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2011 12:12 pm 
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As vets we're all responsible for the noobs on our fields to some degree. This is for their safety and ours. Just like a good parent is not going to let a kid with a brand new drivers license go off unsupervised or in a vehicle they're not ready for we need to restrain our noobs until they're ready to handle a bow.

There will be people who are responsible enough and careful enough that they may be able to arch their first day without problems. They may be super smart and safe and have all their own gear too. Those people still need to learn our rules and feel out how our sport plays before they can arch properly from what I have seen.

I don't see a probationary time like 6 months as a bad thing or a leveling up issue. Rather a natural progression and increase in skill and ability as people play our sport leading to an increase in trust. This goes for reds as well as bows.

All of that said, I don't know if this can be effectively enforced at anything other than home practice or events.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 10:32 am 
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I think the biggest thing that I run into as an archer is that my opponents start yelling at me to do half draw right around 20-25 feet, still in full draw range. I feel as if there is a common misconception at the actual distance of 15 feet. I get in arguments all the time, so much in fact, that i started to bring out a 16' tape measure to show people what 15' really is.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:04 pm 
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That's why I am so against someone full-drawing within 15'. It's such a short distance that if someone lets an arrow fly within that distance, there will be no time for the target to react at all to protect themselves (especially since the archer usually aims for the face).

I maintain that a herald should talk to any archer that is "pretending" to full-draw within this distance, just as they should talk to anyone the "pretends" to begin to throw a punch at someone. Making an opponent believe your about to do something unsafe so as to gain an advantage is against the spirit of the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:11 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
That's why I am so against someone full-drawing within 15'. It's such a short distance that if someone lets an arrow fly within that distance, there will be no time for the target to react at all to protect themselves (especially since the archer usually aims for the face).


15' is also a really short distance...maybe we should be talking about increasing this distance to 20-30' instead. And while we're at it, make javs lighter because their weight hurts at full strength throws at 15'...or maybe make all projectiles illegal to the head. That would solve a lot of issues...

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:23 pm 
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Brutus wrote:
That's why I am so against someone full-drawing within 15'. It's such a short distance that if someone lets an arrow fly within that distance, there will be no time for the target to react at all to protect themselves (especially since the archer usually aims for the face).

I maintain that a herald should talk to any archer that is "pretending" to full-draw within this distance, just as they should talk to anyone the "pretends" to begin to throw a punch at someone. Making an opponent believe your about to do something unsafe so as to gain an advantage is against the spirit of the rules.

You do understand that people are feinting punches to the face all the time, right? And that this a commonly accepted and widely used shot? At least around here it's pretty common to cross an opponents line of sight at close range with a fist (weapon in hand), this causes the target to flinch, blink or react adversely, it is within this split second that you can find your opening. People just need to quit being pussies.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:52 pm 
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<sarcasm>Also, don't hold your sword in a vertical pose, because, you know, you might trip and hit someone in the head. </sarcasm>

As long as a person doen't do anything illegal, i.e. actually fire a full draw shot under 15', etc, we shouldn't be legislating maybe's and possibilities. i know I have enough control to full draw a person * 10' and still be able to back off to 1/2 draw for actually firing, or move back far enough to fire at full. I see no reason to tell people how they can or cannot hold their weapons as long as they aren't doing anything illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:57 pm 
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Thorondor wrote:
Brutus wrote:
That's why I am so against someone full-drawing within 15'. It's such a short distance that if someone lets an arrow fly within that distance, there will be no time for the target to react at all to protect themselves (especially since the archer usually aims for the face).


15' is also a really short distance...maybe we should be talking about increasing this distance to 20-30' instead. And while we're at it, make javs lighter because their weight hurts at full strength throws at 15'...or maybe make all projectiles illegal to the head. That would solve a lot of issues...


Maybe I should clarify.

Its not the 15' that is the problem, its peoples perception of what 15' really is.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Plithut wrote:
Thorondor wrote:
Brutus wrote:
That's why I am so against someone full-drawing within 15'. It's such a short distance that if someone lets an arrow fly within that distance, there will be no time for the target to react at all to protect themselves (especially since the archer usually aims for the face).


15' is also a really short distance...maybe we should be talking about increasing this distance to 20-30' instead. And while we're at it, make javs lighter because their weight hurts at full strength throws at 15'...or maybe make all projectiles illegal to the head. That would solve a lot of issues...


Maybe I should clarify.

Its not the 15' that is the problem, its peoples perception of what 15' really is.


Agreed believe it or not. 15' is a very short distance when you're on a huge field...it seems really short when you're in a church parking lot marking out 30' squares for a casting pool for Fishers of Men...LOL!

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:22 pm 
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Soo Ma Tai wrote:
As long as a person doen't do anything illegal, i.e. actually fire a full draw shot under 15', etc, we shouldn't be legislating maybe's and possibilities. i know I have enough control to full draw a person * 10' and still be able to back off to 1/2 draw for actually firing, or move back far enough to fire at full. I see no reason to tell people how they can or cannot hold their weapons as long as they aren't doing anything illegal.


^ This


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:51 pm 
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I think for me when I am heralding and I turn to see them at full draw with someone inside the 15' line, my first instinct is to just remind them of the half draw rule. I got my answer out of this thread that this is the best thing to do. I often have people remind me when we do line battles before the fight starts to half draw, even though I'm an archer who starts at half, and pulls back to full when I fire, not the other way around.

Thanks for clearing it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:00 am 
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Brutus, you are an over-reacting wuss.
People throw fake punches all the time. If they come close enough, I block them.
People shoot me from full draw@ closer than 15' all the time, too. Usually because I see them at full drw when I,m 20' away and I run straight at them. Still safe and alive.
If people trying to intimadate their opponents was wrong, this wouldn't be FIGHTING.
Phoxly, bust people when they actualy do something wrong, otherwise, STFU.
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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:47 am 
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Why don't we allow like fake Glocks on the field... I mean, they aren't actual guns so it's safe so it should be allowed!


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:05 am 
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That's just stupid. Guns aren't mideval.
For someone who spouts off about how hardcore he is, you sure want to sissify Belegarth more than anyone who has posted any other new changes lately.
Next your going to tell me I cant smack your shield into your face to distract you.
What kind of schoolgirl pillowfighting do you guys do?
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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:05 pm 
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In Belegarth, shield contact to the head is "discouraged" so as a marshal I wouldn't say a word.

My personal feeling is that the rule is irresponsible and should be changed.

Also, keep the flaming down, this isn't GM.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:44 pm 
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No it shouldn't be changed at all. That kind of contact happens. People shield kick and it ends up the face. Shield bashing someone shorter or on the ground and the shield can end up in the face. The way people hold thier shields can cause legitimate shots to roll to the face. Putting your shield in my face or vice versa so I can't see where you're aiming or you can't see me is a viable tactic in situations. I have used all of aforementioned and had them used against me. This does happen and shouldn't legislated against cause it will cause many many more problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Zeldrine Cold wrote:
No it shouldn't be changed at all. That kind of contact happens. People shield kick and it ends up the face. Shield bashing someone shorter or on the ground and the shield can end up in the face. The way people hold thier shields can cause legitimate shots to roll to the face. Putting your shield in my face or vice versa so I can't see where you're aiming or you can't see me is a viable tactic in situations. I have used all of aforementioned and had them used against me. This does happen and shouldn't legislated against cause it will cause many many more problems.

I remember being told by the weapon checkers at Yestare one year (I don't recall if it was VIII or IX) that this is one of the main reasons you want to pad the back of your shield with a layer of blue if you are using a hard core such as plywood.

I would much rather have to do that (pad the back of my shield) than have to worry about holding back on my shield kicks on other fighters for fear of some rule that I currently don't have to worry about.

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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:28 pm 
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This may be a tangent, but I am cook by trade. I play with knives{the metal pointy ones} all the time and one thing I know (because I have had people cut me doing it) is that you do not even joke(feint) about doing something that can cause serious bodily harm [i can never remember the name of the movie but it plays every Christmas and the boy accidentally shots his brother in the eye with the 'harmless' bbgun and kills him]. I do not care who you are, mistakes happen. I am totally a newb, but it seems to me that a well trained and experienced fighter would never do something they know could inadvertently hurt someone. It is like the whole do not point a gun at some one even if you know it is not loaded thing (I was taught that unless you are willing to see it die you do not point it at them, period.). By the way this is what I was talking about in my other post. If you knowingly let something that can seriously harm someone occur under your watch you run the risk of being negligent, at fault, and fully responsible for any damages (BP accident lawsuit would be a good example); waiver or not. So I am going to say that the best practice would be to very loudly proclaim to the entire field that to fire like that is illegal and dangerous, just to cover your *%$.
and because i like to cover mine 1.1.3. A Marshal is responsible for safe conduct of battles, and therefore has the power to stop battles whenever a safety concern occurs1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes1.4.8.4. A draw stop is required to prevent an arrow from being drawn more than 28 inches3.7.1. If during a battle an unsafe situation occurs, it is the responsibility of all Combatants (and Marshals) who see the situation to call .HOLD. and stop the battle. A HOLD stops the battle while the Marshal assesses the situation. The battle resumes only at the Marshal's discretion. and last i checked safety is always the first priority in any decision or conflict that may arise
P.S. Please direct all insults and flaming at the monkey on my shoulder with the gun forcing me to type this. Thank you.
P.S.S. It is a very bad idea to fake a punch at someone, because i know it is against the rules but if you act like you are going to punch me in the face I will defend myself even if it gets me kicked off the field or out of the event. I like to pretend that I am a very nice person but I also really like my teeth.


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 Post subject: Re: Archers: "Halfdraw to fire, fulldraw to intimidate."
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2011 9:34 am 
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Holy wall of text batman!

Dude you just repeat yourself a lot, and compare it to BP....

Whats this, I don't even..

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