Foam Fighters Union

[Mercer]

See? Proof that there canbe an organization that does both Dag and another sport... as long as it's one of the Aratari.

[Argyll]

You were told several times in this thread alone that they wouldn't like it, and it says very specifically in their forum rules that you are not to advertise or discuss other groups in their boards- "Do not post about non-Dagorhir organizations or non-Dagorhir events." it's in the rules that pop up as soon as you click on the "Bulletin" option on the frontpage, so i find it hard to believe that it was a harmless mistake. you were also lying to somebody, somewhere. you were either lying when A. You told us that the point of this was to help all of the foam fighting sports (including our own) grow, or B. You implied to them that your primary reason for posting on their boards was to help build and support dagorhir.

glad to see you guys are conducting this little effort so responsibly.

I am not Tren, and he posted on the Dag boards on his own accord, although as the originator of this group (although I don't claim leadership, all I do is make beltflags) I should claim some responsibility.

all FFU members, please do not post on the dag boards about our group! It is against there rules, and we must respect them whether or not we agree with them. There are other ways to get in touch with Dagorhim. Use facebook and myspace, get a hold of their myspace and facebook groups and contact their members without filling their threads/walls/whatevers up with Belegarth propoganda or the like[/b]

[Beoren]

Not actively trying to be a *, just frustrated.

thanks for that last bit of instruction to those who are going along with you.

I'll try to stay out of this for awhile, though i'll prolly jump back in if tempted with something completely ridiculous. I figure i've said my piece, and its your time if you choose to waste it. adios, and take care.

[Magpie Saegar]

I am not Tren

That's why I'm not changing my avatar.
:-D. Mass confusion can ensue.

[MagnusofDregoth]

"Do not post about non-Dagorhir organizations or non-Dagorhir events."

Like Rome?

Hypocrites.

No, they're not hypocrites. They don't talk about the other games they play on the board. Their Unit website is a different matter, and unit websites aren't addressed by the chapter contract. Nowhere on the Aratari realm website will you see a link to another organization comparable to Dagorhir, Belegarth, SCA, or what-have-you.

Tren, it was pretty obvious that you would be banned from the get-go. That's just how the Dag board works. What you should have done (and what anyone else in a similar position should do) is say "Hey, I live in [insert placename] and I have some friends who might like to do some fighting. Why don't we meet at [place, time] and have introductions all around, and talk about starting a group?" They won't let you post any contact information, but the mods won't keep you from listing a date, time, and place. If you say "we'll be in such and such a park, with our weapons," as shown here, that should work. And then imagine the surprise on the face of the new fighter(s) when they see a bunch of people who already have garb and good weapons and know how to fight, and are friendly and helpful.

Really, the key to building understanding between organizations is showing that you care about people more than organizations, viz. helping someone to start fighting regardless of which group they want to join. If a fighter gets to start a Dagorhir realm because of help they got from Belegarth fighters, rather than getting confused because of circumlocuitous comments made on the web board followed by a ban, they'll likely end up with a favorable impression of this organization, or at least of members of this organization, rather than getting the sense that they're trying to poach potential new members from another organization, as your posts on the other forum might lead one to believe (and, in fact, did exactly that).

[Tor]

"Do not post about non-Dagorhir organizations or non-Dagorhir events."

Like Rome?

Hypocrites.

No, they're not hypocrites. They don't talk about the other games they play on the board. Their Unit website is a different matter, and unit websites aren't addressed by the chapter contract. Nowhere on the Aratari realm website will you see a link to another organization comparable to Dagorhir, Belegarth, SCA, or what-have-you.

Calling BS. When people have MySpace links to other "boffer" sites, regardless of content, their profiles are locked. The fact that Dominus is a hypocrite shouldn't be lost on you, unless you're drining the Kool-aid.

Rome's webpage has links to Dagorhir, true. But it also contains links to the SCA and Marklands, which would be against their own rules should anyone care to enforce them.

Oh, and who would enforce them? Dominus?

[GvK]

SCA and Markland are, rightfully IMHO, not considered competing organizations in that they are not foamfighting organizations. Also, Markland is a mostly mid-Atlantic (near Dag Aratari) organization and traditionally, there has been a lot of cross-over between Dag Aratari, SCA, and Markland. So they are sort of grandfathered in by the "Aratari elders" (myself included).

[Peregrine]

. ... And I don't think Ohio has Gross Burger....

that make Arm. a must do event yummy yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MagnusofDregoth]

. ... And I don't think Ohio has Gross Burger....

that make Arm. a must do event yummy yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rag has USA Steak Buffet. A truly unforgettable experience.

[ashling]

. ... And I don't think Ohio has Gross Burger....

that make Arm. a must do event yummy yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rag has USA Steak Buffet. A truly unforgettable experience.

Yea... But Gross Burger gave me free stuff for coming in in awesome garb. They totally win in my book even though they are an eight hour drive.

[Colin]

. ... And I don't think Ohio has Gross Burger....

that make Arm. a must do event yummy yummy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rag has USA Steak Buffet. A truly unforgettable experience.

Yea... But Gross Burger gave me free stuff for coming in in awesome garb. They totally win in my book even though they are an eight hour drive.

Gross burger > USA Steak Buffet. You can now re-create your USA steak buffetness at your local Golden Corral.

[Shyftir]

can anybody say off subject?

[Big King Jimmy]

Oh, but it's much more important.

[GvK]

As much as I would like to try out Gross Burger, no way, no how is any Golden Corral anywhere near as good as USA Steak Buffet. Word!

Yes, it's off-topic but I had to stand up for the USA Steak Buffet.

[Colin]

As much as I would like to try out Gross Burger, no way, no how is any Golden Corral anywhere near as good as USA Steak Buffet. Word!

Yes, it's off-topic but I had to stand up for the USA Steak Buffet.

You're correct. It's so much better than the steak buffet.

[Sir Cairbre]

http://www.belegarth.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=22991

Now Back on topic!

[Peregrine]

back on topic (insert patriotic music here)I believe that ONLY Gross Burger can unite the foam fighting world.

[Shyftir]

If anything can it's grossburger.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

and to think...they are all of an hour and a half for me....

mmmmm......Gross Burger....

[Lord Onyx]

wow... this was quite a post and endeavor...

I believe I may have had more experience in this area than any one alive and I can tell you from past experiences that your intentions may be great but your goals are years from even being possible.

In my opinion a honest and reasonable goal would be to have the bans put in place by the DBGA against certain members of Belegarth removed by this years RWC. Removal of these bans would show a small amount of healing and would encourage many more Belegarth fighters to attend Rag. If necessary and to appease the DBGA the RWC could even restrict those who return from attending anything that could be perceived as political, possibly even require chaparones who would take responibility for the unbanned while attending Rag. I have proposed this option for the past few years but as always it has been met with great hostility from the leadership of the DBGA, but if the new blood in Dagorhir took this before the RWC with a reasonable argument then I believe this could happen and the first steps and possibly the only needed steps toward healing could happen.

For the record I have been doing this since 1991 and since the split I have been accused of trying to promote Dagorhir by Belegarth fighters because I believe that we should dump ARM and all attend Rag and treat it like the superbowl of foam fighting only if they allow ALL Belegarth fighters in, and I have been banned from the Dagorhir board for reasons I do not even know as well as being accused by Dominus and Graymael of trying to hurt Dagorhir by playing politics. All of this is utter and complete BS but it makes everyone that has taken a shot at the mighty Onyx feel better and the fact is that every has their opinions, good, bad and many ugly...

As for a brief of what happened I have posted once (barely a year after the split.. ) explaining what happened and that does not include my response to the Dominus' Chicken Little essay which did contained some of my thoughts about what happened during the split, but was intended as a personal rebuttal to Dominus' spin on me personally and not Belegarth's position on the split or Dagorhir. Since the mods here delete old posts I cannot locate the first writing I made on the split and I do agree that rehashing it will not help this cause. If you want facts ask in anyone that was involved person over a fire and you will learn all you want and more.
I have not taken a side since the split (unless you count the side of the EBF which I will always take..) so I will not become anymore involved here but I do wish you well and would be happy to offer advice anytime.

[Elebrim]

Thanks for that, Onyx.

Mods, do you have on some forlorn hard drive somewhere an old archive of his post? I think it would be very beneficial for this discussion if we (and by we I mean those with access) could find it. Thanks!

[Olos]

Who are all the belegarth fighters banned from rag? I only know of one.

[Sir Cairbre]

Thanks for that, Onyx.

Mods, do you have on some forlorn hard drive somewhere an old archive of his post? I think it would be very beneficial for this discussion if we (and by we I mean those with access) could find it. Thanks!

Not really. The board takes up about 200mb of database space and if we had/have never purged old archives well it would cost a cabillion dollars to host our site.....

J/K yeah we can archive it. I would suggest the best way would be to make a wiki page about the split on the Belegarthwiki, and then link to this discussion and other discussions that have occurred about it. You might even want to pull out relivant content from the post (eliminating all the repeated statements and light banter) and post it to the article so if after the Boards EOL and the archive goes to the wind the info is still available.

[Peregrine]

we lost a lot of stuff 2 or 3 years ago when the board went down to a virus.

[Lord Onyx]

I know of Kegg.. but I have heard their are others... Does anyone know for certain if anyone other than Kegg is banned?

I know that if Kegg is allowed in he would bring MANY others that refuse to attend due to his ban and in my opinion none of these people that would return have any political endeavours. I know for myself I am just interested in hanging out with as many like minded people as possible and partying like its 1399!

[Elebrim]

I believe that there are a few others banned, as the current situation with foamcombat.com and Lord Talon would indicate. Of course, I have never met nor spoken with Talon in any capacity, so I have no authority on that issue.

[Sir Cairbre]

I know of Kegg.. but I have heard their are others... Does anyone know for certain if anyone other than Kegg is banned?

Lady Fay, Bran of EBF, & I was banned once upon a time.

[V-Hil]

Fey and Kegg were both banned for personal/political reasons. Bran was banned for * on someone's tent two Ragnaroks ago.

[Lord Onyx]

Well I know Bran is supposedly allowed back in so long as he is not destructive and the ban on Lady Fey was imposed by the camp ground due to her abuse of the site. I was unaware of any ban on you MADOG. I feel confident if the ban on Kegg is lifted all other bans will fall away as well, except for Fey and honestly I do not think she would go back under any circumstances anyway.

[bo1]

hey onyx i have a copy of some things that where written i could pm you with the info and realease it with your permission. i believe it is your original information on the topic. it was bestowed on to me from a sage and i was told to keep it close to my chest until the time was correct.

[Physic]

Well I have been banned from the Dag boards. I did not break their rules and still was banned. It is very sad to me that adults act like that. I see this as becoming that much tougher when you have people like that in charge who dont really care about the sport but their personal power and whatever agenda they have.

[Physic]

http://www.dagorhir.com/cgi-bin/ultimat ... 1&t=001050

[Colin]

Dagorhir doesn't go to other groups' websites or events and try to recruit their members to join our chapters.

Heh, that's a load of *

[Tren]

What *. In my case I tried to bend the rules, I did it with the best intentions but it was still a mistake, and so I understand getting banned. But to ban someone for just being associated with a different game is just an unbelievable expression of someone's raging egomania, because apparently intersport participation erodes the fabric of society (or maybe just certain people's ability to influence participants).

To be fair, coming on the heels of my thread I'm not surprised they'd "check up" on you, but it's still unfounded to ban you. You didn't break any rules, and I'm sure if Inwe decided to form an official Dag realm there in Peoria, you'd support it as fully as any Bel practice. It's stupid, it's even a little infuriating, but it's not worth dwelling on.

I think the points been made that with the politics the way they are there won't be any official opening up between the two groups for a good while, but that doesn't mean you can't still fight with Dag fighters in Peoria. Unless, the Dag leaders are willing to personally come support a Peoria dag practice the way you are, they can shove it up their asses. I know I'll still be willing to go help out any fledgling Dag realms in my area, and given the lack of support for Dag in Illinois, I'm willing to bet they'd appreciate it.

[Mekoot Gorlock]

There is a big post on there about the twin cities and Frozen north. Rowan went up and rebuilt frozen north as a belegarth realm.

The worst part is reading all of the new realm posts in places where people are trying to get stuff going but there is already a thriving belegarth realm that they refuse to mention.

[Ju'Dekei]

You have heard it before and I hate to drop in and sound like the nagging mom, but this is not being made better by breaking Dagohir's rules. We can't ask for respect by being disrespectful. Going onto their boards and attempting to recruit is only going to rehash hard feelings.

[Lord Onyx]

Yes please PM or email me at onyx@comcast.net

[Physic]

You have heard it before and I hate to drop in and sound like the nagging mom, but this is not being made better by breaking Dagohir's rules. We can't ask for respect by being disrespectful. Going onto their boards and attempting to recruit is only going to rehash hard feelings.

I hoeestly wasnt trying to recruit from Dagorhir do any harm against them in any way. I fully intended to to make a Dag chapter in Peoria. If they are going to advertise for me so be it. I am not a political person I want people to come out and fight I dont care what name it is under. I will continue to go to Dag and Bel events. I will even continue to promote both groups.

[GvK]

Physic, V'Hil would have told you that what you did *would* result in a ban. For what its worth, I believe your intentions are/were good, but the Dag boards simply do not tolerate ANY sort of posts about another group (especially Bel) that could be *perceived* as being counter to Dag (especially Bel) and especially trying to lure away Dag members (especially to Bel). Your posts, with a little digging on these boards, made it very easy to connect you are a Bel member and you may have been trying to lure away members to Bel. Again, I believe you, but even if your intentions were good or "bad"--they violated the rules of the Dag boards.

Anyhow, hope to see you at Rag again.

[Winfang]

Regardless of your intentions, you have to step back and look at how it's perceived by Dominus, Graymael, and the other mods on that board. You apart of the Uruk-Hai a unit started in Numenor (Belegarth) and ran by a knight of Numenor (Belegarth), you havn't signed the Dagorhir contract, and you've posted on Belegarth board about this practice. 3 strikes against you.

Honestly, don't even bother with it until you get a Dag contract signed.

[Zzyzx]

There is a small group of us that has just started fighting. Right now we are doing it in my backyard. I not sure all the rules on here. I know I cant post my email. Can I post my address on here? We are currently doing the practices on Monday and Tuesday evenings at about 6pm.

The post comes across as if you are a brand new fighter, which is deceptive. They can come to our boards and view your profile which shows you've been active on these boards since June of '03. On top of that, this was posted very shortly after Tren's train wreck of a post on their boards.

Anyway, it's just a web forum about a game. I am sure that in person you will be welcomed as a fellow fighter and not scorned as a member of Bel.

[Argyll]

hmm... i didn't know that you couldn't even post about a fledgling little practice group on the dag boards. That seems pretty harsh, but rules are rules. I would have made the same mistake I suppose and not felt that I had broken any agreement.

I suppose that such a policy would definately bolster an incentive for people to get chapterse going faster given that you can't even mention a fighting time/place without being official, and that surely would explain why there is such a boost in Dag membership in recent years.

This brings up something I was wondering about... do you think that it would be more benificial to the FFUs cause if FFU supporting chapters registered in Dagorhir? That way there wouldn't be such a social upheaval against you from the Dag community. My new realm seems like it might benefit our cause more by being a Dag Chapter... what do you think?

Also, can Dominus really hold anything against someone for being part of "belegarth unit". Aren't units a pretty lose distinction? Are units too bound by contracts? In other words what makes an organization like the Uruk-Hai a "belegarth unit" in a legal sense? It seems like just cause Physic was in a unit that attends more belegarth events and practices he was red flagged.

[Physic]

Physic, V'Hil would have told you that what you did *would* result in a ban. For what its worth, I believe your intentions are/were good, but the Dag boards simply do not tolerate ANY sort of posts about another group (especially Bel) that could be *perceived* as being counter to Dag (especially Bel) and especially trying to lure away Dag members (especially to Bel). Your posts, with a little digging on these boards, made it very easy to connect you are a Bel member and you may have been trying to lure away members to Bel. Again, I believe you, but even if your intentions were good or "bad"--they violated the rules of the Dag boards.

Anyhow, hope to see you at Rag again.

It is very had to associate yourself to one group when I have members from SCA, Amtgard, Belegarth/Dagorhir fighting each week. To me Bel and Dag are the same thing with different leadership. There certainly wasn't any luring going on. I was only offering a person a chance to fight with a good group of people.

With my thinking of being open minded about all the groups I honestly did not believe that I was breaking any rules on the board. I know there are several fighters that participate in Dag and Bel like yourself. I just figured that if I was not advertising specifically that I was not breaking any rules.

If Dominus or Graymael are at the Olympics I will talk with them respectfully and see if we can work something out. What you said did enlighten me as to how they see things.

Unfortunately I will not be able to make it to Rag this year. I have to go on a cruise in the Caribbean that I don't even have to pay for. I will be scuba diving in Costa Maya and the Grade Caymans and lounging on the beach in Freeport. Its going to be terrible I do have some members of my group planning to go It was one of my all time favorite events last year.

[Physic]

There is a small group of us that has just started fighting. Right now we are doing it in my backyard. I not sure all the rules on here. I know I cant post my email. Can I post my address on here? We are currently doing the practices on Monday and Tuesday evenings at about 6pm.

The post comes across as if you are a brand new fighter, which is deceptive. They can come to our boards and view your profile which shows you've been active on these boards since June of '03. On top of that, this was posted very shortly after Tren's train wreck of a post on their boards.

Anyway, it's just a web forum about a game. I am sure that in person you will be welcomed as a fellow fighter and not scorned as a member of Bel.

If I wanted to be deceptive I would have just changed my name. Deception was never my goal. It was just the truth. I have been fighting with new fighters in my back yard recently

[Peregrine]

anything Bel is going to be red flagged ( there are a lot of hard feelings). what he could have done was register as a Dag group then post his info.
I see no problem with you group being a Dag group you can still come to all the Bel events. Many after all are right by you.
so yes I think starting a Chicago based Dag group would go a long way to more cross over.
regster than start posting about your group.

Physic maybe you should go ahead and register your group to so they can see that they were wrong about you.
for the record I am not against crossover, just the remerging the two groups into one.

[Physic]

That will hopefully be my plan Peregrine. Im going to check to make sure they will outright not let me so I don't waste my time.

[Izareth]

I know the banning may seem extreme, or even be extreme, but you have to look at this:
They were the only show in town using these exact rules.

There was a shakeup in politics and another group came along saying: same rules, except Blue weapons are Class 1, and so on. (As Dur-Demarion we used to say we would do this while venting about Dag leaders and their seeming unwillingness to treat us as we felt we deserved.)

Belegarth did take the same rules and create a new game. Reasons aside, that is what happened.

They grabbed the things they could lay claim to, and clamped down as hard as they could.

They are still clamping down, they see it as preservation of their group versus a very real threat to their historical institution.

It is not such an off base perception.

Join our group, join their group, change minds one at a time.

You've gotta see why they perceive a threat, Belegarth exists because of differences in leadership.

[Hunter S.]

Dominus, tear down this wall!

[Argyll]

yeah. Come on Hasselhoff, let's get this party started.

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[Atman]