Parry and Punchblocks

[Vak]

Its open for discussion. Cus I dun know anything about either.

[Talion]

IMHO, it's usually better to punchblock than to attempt a parry. If you are confident and can get a good angle on a parry, go for it. But parries will be hard on the wrist, so be careful.

On the other hand, I find punchblocks very effective. You can even control how your opponent's sword/weapon bounces away to a certain extent. I even have gloves with some good knuckle padding to prevent injury (though this results in gloves that are probably considered non-period).

Also, it seems to me that it is a lot easier to counterswing off of a punchblock than a parry.

edit: what the heck is a handblock?

[Spork]

Punch-blocking was something the leader of my old realm taught me first.

You just have to know where to move your hand whenever the opponent strikes, otherwise they might hit to high and hit the sword. Which will cause your blade possibly to smack you in the face. They might hit the pommel and hurt the wrist. I've found it very hard to punch-block around the legs (unless legged.)

As for parrying, have no idea.

[Izareth]

The best way I've found to parry is this.

Turn your weapon vertical slightly out from hip to shoulder. Sweep outward to meet your opponent's shot on the side you lined with your weapon. Simultaneously turn your hip to keep your arm in line with your body and push the tip of your weapon down to flatten yout opponent's weapon groundward.

[Georghiu Leonte]

I think punch blocks are more useful then parrying..but I do parry on occasion. When I try to parry it is usually when I am fighting Florentine against a sword and boarder. I just try to push their weapon away from my body and swing with my other sword/weapon .

[Izanaki]

The best way I've found to parry is this.

Turn your weapon vertical slightly out from hip to shoulder. Sweep outward to meet your opponent's shot on the side you lined with your weapon. Simultaneously turn your hip to keep your arm in line with your body and push the tip of your weapon down to flatten yout opponent's weapon groundward.

would it be possible to film this, maybe even from different angles, dry runs, with you fighting air, etc, so people can see it in action?

[Todo]

For a parry, what I usually try and do is take a quick step backward (If the strike's coming too fast, ignore that) and wrap my sword around their shot so it's hitting the back of their blade; then smacking it downward. It should send their sword shooting down, leaving them open. That's what works for me, at least.

[Ryoma]

The only situation where I use parrying of any sort is when using a large weapon like my red sword versus another large weapon like another red or a polearm.

Otherwise, it's just easier to learn to dodge or punch-block when faster weapons are involved.

[Dachande]

i aspire to parry. i punch block only when im in a less advantageous position. when i imagine one fighter completely dominating another, i never envision the victorious fighter ever punch blocking. the parry, in most its forms, is a more active and controlled attempt to stop an opponents attack...where as a punch block is almost like a last ditch effort to just stop the sword from hitting you. punch blocking seems like more of a 'wait for the action to get brought to you and stop it' feel. i personally dont want anyone ever dictating the action of the fight, and if i can reach out and interact with the other sword before it gets to that point, then i get to dictate the pace.

this being said, i punch block all the time. its easy, its strong, and its pretty fast since you dont have to whip a sword around too much to do it. but in my opinion, it is the lesser of the two ways listed here, and i wouldnt rely on it as my main mode of blocking.

[Georghiu Leonte]

I agree..the list would go...dodge..parry(shield block if not Florentine)..punch block...

((This is slightly off-topic))

If you can dodge well you can drive in well, and it would be more benefital to strike when the opponents sword is in motion away from you.

If you can parry or shield block you have less chance that someone just taps your weapon, your against it and you can 'feel' the pressure, you will know when it begins a back swing/change of direction.

A punch block you have relatively little advantage, you just aren't hit.

[Crom]

This only works when fighting single blue but if you rest your blade in the area between your index finger and thumb you will have enough support to block the hardest of hits plus it gives you an oppertunity to lash out at your opponets with quick flics of the wrist that are hard to block while they are rebounding from your parry.

[Drakkar/Hohiro]

Punch blocking? Wow, sounds like a way to exploit the rules to me. The way I see things is that we recreate medieval combat. We use foam weapons for obvious reasons, but everything else should try to have some realism. When have you seen someone blocking a sword with their fist in Braveheart, or Lord of the Rings? Never! I refuse to punch block because I like to think of the swords and other weapons as REAL, even though they are FAKE. As a result, I fight like they are real. I feel punch blocking is simply cheesy, unrealistic, and a form of legal cheating. many people use it and I do believe in ti's effectiveness, but I think it betrays the true spirit of the game.

[Elwrath]

depends...if i was in real combat i'd have an iron basket hilt and a gauntlet under it...so i could punch block if i had to. Kiss principle.

[Drakkar/Hohiro]

You can make a basket hilt for swords. I see them all the time. But not everyone would have them. Most would be fighting with regular swords. longwords, broadswords, and short swords rarely had basket hilts or anything remotely similar. Gauntlets would be more common, but I sure would not want to block a real sword with one. I also cannot "pretend" that everyone on the field would have gauntlets and a basket hilt. If people want to do it, fine. It is there right, I still think it is cheesy

[Arrakis]

I think it makes Florentine a reasonably playable style. Otherwise, you'd have to be some sort of whirling god of death just to ever win a fight with it and it's awful hard to get to "whirling death-god" level without significant practice. No one likes to get whooped all the time, so there would be no good Florentiners.

Saftey, Playability, Realism. Florentine is cool; ergo, it should be playable.


Also, yes, I would argue that most swords had baskets or some sort, after a certain period in history. Ever heard of a martial sport called singlestick? What about the classic basket-hilted broadsword? The cutlass, the rapier, the rapier-sword, the cut-and-thrust sword...

Most of the swords that didn't have basket hilts were Japanese or intended to be used in 1.5+ hands. See: more than half of the Oakeshott-typed blades and their traditional hilts. And all of these, with rare exceptions, had at least rudimentary hilts, be they swept, curved, slanted, straight, or quillion. All of these aided in blocking at a point low in the center of gravity, near the hands.

So, you may think it's cheese but it's a well-entrenched part of the sport and a well-loved one, at that. Too, it does have significant historical basis. Likely the only reason more swords didn't have baskets was difficulty of manufacture and, here, that isn't a problem that we have to deal with.

Though, if you want to take limb from hand shots on weapons, that's your call to make. Maybe you'll sway some people around to your way of thinking and almost undoubtedly people will think you quite honorable. Or silly. At least one of those. :P

[Big King Jimmy]

Punch blocking? Wow, sounds like a way to exploit the rules to me. The way I see things is that we recreate medieval combat. We use foam weapons for obvious reasons, but everything else should try to have some realism. When have you seen someone blocking a sword with their fist in Braveheart, or Lord of the Rings? Never! I refuse to punch block because I like to think of the swords and other weapons as REAL, even though they are FAKE. As a result, I fight like they are real. I feel punch blocking is simply cheesy, unrealistic, and a form of legal cheating. many people use it and I do believe in ti's effectiveness, but I think it betrays the true spirit of the game.

So you're taking shots to your hands as arm?

Fantastic!

[Drakkar/Hohiro]

Actually it means I don't actively block with my hands, if you happen to hit my sword-hand I am calling hand and smashing you.

[Sir_Mel]

...but everything else should try to have some realism. When have you seen someone blocking a sword with their fist in Braveheart, or Lord of the Rings? Never! ...

I do believe those are movies and historical documentaries. Obviously some things were omitted due to the fact they didn't look as cool. A sword blade clashing against another sword blades looks and sounds a lot cooler than some guy hitting another dudes hand guard. I don't mean to be harsh, but in all honesty, next time you try to make an argument about historical realism, don't use a fantasy movie as basis of part of your argument.


Aside from that, I think punch blocking is great, especially if you have really nicely padded gloves. However, I find that more and more I'm blocking with the bottom 5-8 in of my blade than with my hands. It's not high enough on the blade to be to weak and possibly injure your wrist, but it's not so lo that you're just punching at your opponents weapon.

Also, I'd have to disagree with the order of blocking in certain situations. If you miss the dodge with a sword and shield and the blow is going to your sword side, it would be more beneficial to you to block with your sword rather than move your shield and expose your other side. It's not a huge deal, just my opinion on the matter.

[Dabbanoth]

Actually it means I don't actively block with my hands, if you happen to hit my sword-hand I am calling hand and smashing you.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahaha
aha
ha

[Thomas MacFinn]

depends...if i was in real combat i'd have an iron basket hilt and a gauntlet under it...so i could punch block if i had to. Kiss principle.

I've worn metal gauntlets at Belegarth practice. They tore up the handle wrapping on my sword and more than one opponent commented that he was worried they would degrade the foam on their swords.

[Arrakis]

I intend to acquire/make a set of leather clamshell gauntlets to fight in; they look better/more period than a set of Everlast Glove Wraps and would, theoretically, worn over a pair of decent leather gloves, protect my hands to a greater degree.

If someone * about hitting armor-grade leather, well, they can get over it. They hit armor, why not my gauntlets?

Though, you could say the same thing about metal...

[Elwrath]

Ya platemail isn't the best armor to wear in belegarth you're right Macfinn. I was just commenting that if i was in real combat i would wear those as would most people i think. Drakkar was pointing out that it wasn't realistic that we don't take hand shots when the hand is on a weapon.

Personally i wear padded leather mma gloves.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I'm sorry I wasn't clearer with my point: My point was that even if we could wear metal gauntlets (as I can), they might not be practical with the weapons we use. It was directed to Drakkar.

[Sir_Mel]

...but everything else should try to have some realism. When have you seen someone blocking a sword with their fist in Braveheart, or Lord of the Rings? Never! ...

I do believe those are movies and not historical documentaries. Obviously some things were omitted due to the fact they didn't look as cool. A sword blade clashing against another sword blades looks and sounds a lot cooler than some guy hitting another dudes hand guard. I don't mean to be harsh, but in all honesty, next time you try to make an argument about historical realism, don't use a fantasy movie as basis of part of your argument.


Aside from that, I think punch blocking is great, especially if you have really nicely padded gloves. However, I find that more and more I'm blocking with the bottom 5-8 in of my blade than with my hands. It's not high enough on the blade to be to weak and possibly injure your wrist, but it's not so lo that you're just punching at your opponents weapon.

Also, I'd have to disagree with the order of blocking in certain situations. If you miss the dodge with a sword and shield and the blow is going to your sword side, it would be more beneficial to you to block with your sword rather than move your shield and expose your other side. It's not a huge deal, just my opinion on the matter.

[Kageshiro]

I do both regularly, and prefer a parry to a punch block. The reason is pretty simple. It is much easier to parry without moving the core of your body. Not moving your core gives two advantages (1) you retain defense (e.x. you are much more susceptible to the high-cross if your core moves away from your shield when reaching for a punch-block), and (2) retaining core stability allows for easier return to an offense friendly "ready" position. Obviously, neither of these are disadvantages if you can punch block without moving your core - which is when I tend to punch-block for all of the reasons mentioned earlier.

However, for whatever reason, the fact that I parry alot seems to be quite abnormal on the local and national field.

Sir Kage

[Arrakis]

Sir Kage, I submit that this is because parries require an understanding of space and of timing, whereas punch blocking requires only an understanding of space.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Punch blocking is all well and good for our game, but it is a very bad habit to get into, at lease IMHO. This is why. It may be true that some historical weapons had basket hilts, but if it didn't, you didn't punch block with it unless you wanted to loose. You see, you can't hold the weapon with no fingers. On a more modern note, if you haapen to get in an altercation on the mean streets of whatever shanty town you live in, and it turns ugly cause some guy grabs his baseball bat. Now you, being the smart belegarth fighter you are, reach instantly for the club/stick that happens to be in reach, just as your assailant swings his bat. Out of habit (a bad one) you go and punchblock his bat.....oh nozers, youz got broken fingers and he's gonna pummel you into oblivion. But, if you had trained better to block properly with the bottom 3" of the blade above the crossguard, you'd be just fine.

That's why I don't punch block, as well as not liking broken fingers

[Titan G]

i personally am neither a fan of punch blocking or parrying i prefer mobile hips whilst carrying a shield. but in this game very rarely have i seen a parry go off successfully. doesnt mean it can't happened and i also haven't been to a nation event in a while but for the most part when i see people trying to parry everything just becomes a cluster and no one can really tell if any one was hit or if it was a sliding blow etc etc. as far as punch blocking goes i use to refuse to do it or be equiped to do it so my advice is realise one thing, your going to punch block whether you do it on purpose or not so be ready and learn how to use it to your advantage i, like elwrath, wear 4 ounce MMA combat gloves for good mobility and good protection at the same time.

[tvetree]

Wow.I must be a real goof.I thought a punch block was a parry.And that a proper punch block did not land on your hand but somewhere right above it.
That punch blocking got it's name from the way you struck at the weapon you intend to block.Be it with shield/buckler/sword...

And a proper gauntlets most likly would not save you from a shot that was not slowed down before it hit(blade/hilt/basket)the fingers.

Not taking hands as targets is about safty and playablity.Using your hands(on a weapon) as sheilds is just bad form.

Note:
YES I did abuse this last sunday,with a dagger and sword combo VS a light red.Sorry but it was fun

[Hatchet]

this is a very very specific fight but; when fighting long blue vs blue blocking a strike using [and I hate using soul calibur analogies but; some of them work] Mitsurugis guard impact, point is to usually when they attack intercept the blade with your blade at about the middle part of their blade [stepping forward while doing so] and basically push forward hard . Effectively if your the only one using two hands to hold the weapon their weapon may end up effectively behind them from whence it started if they too are using two hands then the blades will maybe effectively stop and if your quick with it end up grappling their weapon. This also works effectively with smaller red swords vs red


As for punch blocking I don't try to do it but; it happens sometimes.

[Big King Jimmy]

Wow.I must be a real goof.I thought a punch block was a parry.And that a proper punch block did not land on your hand but somewhere right above it.
That punch blocking got it's name from the way you struck at the weapon you intend to block.Be it with shield/buckler/sword...

And a proper gauntlets most likly would not save you from a shot that was not slowed down before it hit(blade/hilt/basket)the fingers.

Not taking hands as targets is about safty and playablity.Using your hands(on a weapon) as sheilds is just bad form.

I understand where you find this to be bad form, I also understand why you'd want to parry vs punch block. However, with a good pair of gloves (The century MMA sparing gloves have been popular lately, since they provide protection all the way to the second knuckle) the impact even from a glaive has minimal effect on your hands. And not everyone fights with fiberglass. Punch blocking vs parrying greatly increases the life of a kitespar weapon.

[tvetree]

And a proper gauntlets most likly would not save you from a shot that was not slowed down before it hit(blade/hilt/basket)the fingers.


]

This Didn't come out as I intended,not as in game play but as in history.I'd punch block Bel weapons with a good M/C glove all day long and just get a soreness the next day.It is safe, very safe,but if we where allowed to target hands(as opposed to it being part of the weapon) other people maybe hurt.Smaller hands/ no gloves ...

[Big King Jimmy]

Well yah, then they shouldn't punch block. It's not for everyone.

[tvetree]

Well yah, then they shouldn't punch block. It's not for everyone.

I agree.

Just trying to clear up My mistake in the above post.

[Arrakis]

I punch block when I have to, parry/counterstrike when I can.

Saves effort, saves wear and tear.

[Olos]

My Century MMA gloves (well, just the right one, which I use a lot more) broke yesterday. Formed a slit along the side of the glove from pinky to wrist

Now I have to go back to my regular gloves that aren't nearly as nice for punchblocking, maybe I'll try to add a leather and blue foam guard to them or something. Not gonna buy another $40 pair of gloves if they are just gonna break in 4 months again. Or maybe I'll switch it out in the store so that it has two right hand gloves...

[tvetree]

My Century MMA gloves (well, just the right one, which I use a lot more) broke yesterday. Formed a slit along the side of the glove from pinky to wrist

...

Did the seam split or the leather rip?.

Either way I'd sew it up(or tape)and play on.Maybe add some leather give it a better look.

[Big King Jimmy]

I'd bet the seem ripped, I've seen the same thing happen to a few other pairs. I'd just let it go, more ventilation. And the way you describe it, along the outside edge of the hand, you don't get hit much there anyway.

[Olos]

I think it was mostly the leather ripping, though part of the rip was on the seam.. I'd just sew em up, but they are quite tight already and I'm not sure if they'd fit on.

I'll keep using em for a while, maybe use some grip tape or something, we'll see how it goes.

I love punchblocking with them though, it's a lot of fun.

[Titan G]

also what brand did you buy? ive seen alot of people have issues with the everlast brand of MMA but the UFC endorsed and the wec endorsed ones have a pretty good life to them IF you ever do decide to get another pair

[Davit]

Lol also make sure you get the ones WITHOUT the metal/plastic bars in them.

[Olos]

I use the century ones.

I had a pair of the everlast, but I tore through the neoprene palm in about 2 weeks.

They had a foamish bar that you could grip on, but I just cut that out, and have had no problems until now.

Anyway, I love how the topic of this thread was changed so easily.

[Forkbeard]

I have always felt that puposefully blocking with the hand on you're weapon is one of the huge, lame downfalls of our (belegarths) fighting style.
Soo is absolutely right, it is a bad habbit that will only cause you troble if you ever need to actually kick some ones *. Musle memory and all that.
I TRY not to do it. Unfortunatly, the fighting on our field is soooo fast(**** you Ruben) that to keep up I have to give up some of my personal ideas about fighting, sometimes.
There are several Belegarth fighting moves I just don't use because I don't feel they are worthwhile in an actually fight. Many times it gets me killed. But Bel fighting isn't about winning so much for me. It's more about being in a fight and seeing what I can do.
Don't get me wrong, I fully understand how far we are from real fighting, I just don't want to teach myself bad habbits.
As for parrying. Once you make a real effort to give up punch blocking, it's easy. You should never try to stop a heavy shot with the tip of you're sword, but you have alot more blade than just the tip. I find that parring is more about deflection and redirection than blocking.
FB

[Mercer]

"Best block no be there", to quote some wise person whose name I've forgotten.

But if you can't dodge (and if some big mother-Hubbard like Vokor swinging full-on, you have my condolences), trying to STOP the shot is unlikely to work, and more likely to hurt your wrist/hand and/or f-up your weapon. Slapping it aside, redirecting it, or pulling some other kind of weapon-aikido is MUCH more likely to work, and is much easier on the ole corpse.

[Titan G]

i find the most effective method (in bele) for defense is punchblocking/not being there, these two combinations always seem to work effectively for me. that being said i also fight with weapons with about double the abount of handle AND i pommel fight. with that amound of handle i find low blocking/parrys to be very effective. i dont think ( because of the the speed of our game) that high or away from the body parrys are practical but low and close body parrys can be used.

[Soo Ma Tai]

FYI---
Block=A block is an attack against the opponents weapon. A block stops the motion/force of an opponents attack. A block is generally at a 90 deg angle to the attack.

Parry=A parry is a redirection of the opponents weapon. A parry dos not stop the motion/force of the opponents attack. A parry follows the attacks angle, only redirecting it a bit.

Just some very basic definitions I was given to tell the difference between a block and a parry.

[p_quick]

you wanna learn how to parry and reposte? you should have been at arm and taken my class

every good fighter weapon blocks when someone swings at their weapon side. (watch them and you will see, and watch good florintiners too)

If you truly wanna become better at parrying and reposte-ing
Try getting better at Single Blue, or take a saber fencing class.

[MagnusofDregoth]

Nice thread resurrection.

But, it deserves to be brought up again:

If you learn how to parry with your sword, especially the bottom bit of it, then you will become a much better fighter. The sheer number of high crosses that you see on the field means that, if you know how to parry-riposte, you will get tons of kills at every large event.

[p_quick]

well spoken

[Tiercel]

I learned to fight at Numenor, and thought I was doing pretty good punch blocking with my sword hand while fighting single blue. One day I took my glove off and realized my hand was swollen up something pretty. My knuckles still don't match up properly, but it's only been a couple of months and I'm an optimist.

What's the verdict on mma gloves, then? Will they make punch blocking -safe- even if not entirely period-realistic? I really prefer fighting without a shield, but not if it's going to end up ruining my hand permamently.

If they'll make punch blocking safe, I'll upgrade to more expensive gloves. If nothing will make punch blocking safe, I'll spend my money on a shield and just have to get used to it. =/

Like PB'ing or not.... can it ever be safe?