Lamellar Armor

[Oisin]

Hey all,

I'm considering making myself a suit of lamellar armor out of 18 ga. Newstead-pattern plates (aka, minimum weight to pass in both Dag and Bel--ironically, thicker than lamellar needs to be for real armoring purposes because of the overlap). Since I've never seen metal lamellar on the field before, I have a few questions about it.

1. Is it likely to fail the finger-catching rules?

2. Do surfaces covered by other plates need to be penny round? Aka, if they are internal?

3. Is there anything else that might cause problems with it, that I haven't thought of/thought to ask?

Thanks . . .

Oisin

[Mekoot Rowan]

Mods, Please move this to the Armoury

In answer to your question the pertinent rules are:

1)
3.3. Armor must not catch appendages. Fingers should not catch in Armor. This includes articulated plates and large diameter chain.

If a finger can slip in between the plates then there is a high likelihood of failure for safety.

2)
3.1.8.1. The edge of rigid metal Armor shall have the smoothness of the edge of a penny.
3.1.8.2. The edge of rigid metal Armor shall have less cutting ability than the edge of a penny.
3.1.8.3. The radius of any rigid metal corner must be greater than the radius of a penny.

You'll note that technically these rules apply to all edges. However, there are many allowances made for slightly rough edges which are covered by leather. Though not specifically mentioned in the BoW, this is a generally accepted practice which could apply here in a similar manner as the "rough" interior edge would be covered by other scales. So that's the long answer for where I could have said "maybe." You could build it this way and find out what checkers say, or you could invest the extra time to round it all and be sure of it passing.

Is there a reason that you really want this armor to be steel? You could do a very similar thing in leather which would be lighter, cheaper and provide the exact same in game protection.

[Kyrian]

Done.

[Cib]

Is there a reason that you really want this armor to be steel? You could do a very similar thing in leather which would be lighter, cheaper and provide the exact same in game protection.

Cool factor, + unique? Also, I think steel (in proper sized sheets) is actually much cheeper than leather.

[Arrakis]

What pattern of lacing are you planning on using? I can't see why fingers would catch in well-made lamellar.

[Mekoot Rowan]

Is there a reason that you really want this armor to be steel? You could do a very similar thing in leather which would be lighter, cheaper and provide the exact same in game protection.

Cool factor, + unique? Also, I think steel (in proper sized sheets) is actually much cheeper than leather.

Oh I'm sure there are reasons, I just want to know what they are. Also, you may be right if you're talking about buying whole leather sides, but lamellar can be done from much lighter scales cut from scrap pieces. A five lb. bag of scrap at some hobby stores will cost no more than $10 and will often provide more than enough for lemellar (depending on the size of the person the armor is for).

[Oisin]

Basically, yeah, coolness factor, and that no one else is doing it. Plus, it's metal armor that's lighter and less shoulder-heavy than chainmail. I've heard from several people who say that their shirts weigh less than 10 lbs (admittedly in 20 ga, not 18), which is great because I like metal armor, but dislike the weight and shoulder-heaviness of chain.

Plus, it's an armor type that my character might have actually historically have been exposed to, and I try to keep myself at least relatively historically accurate.

[Claymore]

I thnk that preventing finger catching spots will be determined by how the lames are layered and how they're tied.

these pictures provided in the tutorial by ender show how properly laid lamellar armor looks and you'll note how tight each piece is regaurdless to the curve.





As for how its done? I dont have a clue. I had enough frustration making my armor segments passable and they wern't small like these

[Cib]

This guy made his own lacing method that only overlaps vertically, and looks good:

[maximilian]

I cut 100 lammelae once at work from 18ga. Not remotely enough to cover my torso.
As I took it to my car my opinion was "this stuff is heavy!" Since I use chainmail armor anyhow I soon abandoned the idea due to the weight factor.
Also, consider chamfering (smoothing) the lacing holes, if they have sharp burrs your laces will be cut. Also the shearing action of metal plates overlapping will contribute to your armor unraveling one day.

I love the look of lammelar armor, but I'd definitely use leather for it. Lighter, more flexible, and less maintenance.

Sheet metal is definitely cheaper by the square foot than armor grade leather. I'm not sure how much it costs, I get it out of the scrap bin at work.

[Claymore]

however, I will mention that any lamellar armor with any legal material will be heavy. The reason it gets heavy quickly is becuase the layers of material overlap, and you need twice the material to cover the same ammount of space. if you use leather, try to keep it thinner so that it becomes legal while overlaping.

Dont make the same mistake I did with mine. I went with 12-15 oz saddle shirt for just about everything + 17-19 oz for the body. The torso and shoulders weigh aprox 35 lbs. And I know it will get worse as I add more, (helm, bracers, leggins, and such.)

[Enderonimus]

Hey, Oisin, my applause to you for trying something different in armor styles! Lamellar is great, easy to make and offers many options for customizing, ie: differnet shaped plates, lacing designs, even basic construction.
Lamellar is very common amongst the SCA, due mostly to its ease of construction and period authenticity. I fought in plastic lamellar for my first few years, and after the first fight or 2, you forget you even have armor on!
Now steel lamellar is a bit more tricky. Like maximillain wrote, one major concern is the lacing holes shearing the lacing. One thing I did to counter this is I used a small router bit on the holes I drilled, giving them a smooth finish, and not biting into the lace so much. And with the lace, especially if your working in steel, I recommend using parachute cord, particularily military issue. That is designed to be mostly rip-stop, and should last a long time. It's real cheap on-line. I have a few sites bookmarked if you need them.
When building the first lamellar suit, the easiest design is what is called the "Newcastle" plate and weave design. Allows for fairly large plates, 2"x3", and is very easy to weave.
Here are some pics of my old lamellar suit:




Here is a pattern for the plates:


And here's how you lace them:


Some examples of lamellar in the Newcastle style:




Good luck, bud! Here's to your endeavors!

[Claymore]

I recommend using parachute cord, particularily military issue. That is designed to be mostly rip-stop, and should last a long time.

quoted for truth. Fantastic material to lace any armor with.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I just stumbled across this:

http://www.midrealm.org/kith/kith/lacing_directions.pdf

[HesinRaca]

This is all very exciting. Brigadine and Lamelar make me happy.

Anyone have any intense historical research capacities in terms of armour?

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Oisin, I have steel brig encased in/riveted to leather, and its actually not horribly heavy. There is some over-lapping of the plates, but not as much as in llamelar. It's Judas' old suit, so he might be able to give you some better specs on it. It's real manuverable, just loud as hell.

[Bothvar]

Wulfvyn likes his lamellar warskirt, "sounds like the calverly coming", he says. As for construction, learned a big lesson on cutting, hardening, & lacing/riveting pieces together.

[Big King Jimmy]

Oisin, I have steel brig encased in/riveted to leather, and its actually not horribly heavy. There is some over-lapping of the plates, but not as much as in llamelar. It's Judas' old suit, so he might be able to give you some better specs on it. It's real manuverable, just loud as hell.

This is something I'm planing on trying to make this season. It's not armor grade leather I'm assuming, but like a suade?

[Thomas MacFinn]

Anyone have any intense historical research capacities in terms of armour?

This article on lamellar has a pretty hefty bibliography.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

This is something I'm planing on trying to make this season. It's not armor grade leather I'm assuming, but like a suade?

Correct. The outer layer is a garment leather (a little thicker than suede) and the interior is a satin backed suede. It's quite comfy and only chafes/irritates when it gets soaking wet.

Here's a decent shot of it:

[savetuba]

Oisin: Please keep us updated on your project. Sounds like an interesting project that many of us might duplicate.

[Rocca]

I don't really know is this is where I should post this but oh well. Inspired by the posts above I am now embarking on my own quest to make armor. This is hindered by the fact that I am female and therefore am unable to make the nice smooth lines of Lamellar work for me (or rather, not if I want to also show off). so yeah, here is my design, and my plan. I have no experience with this so I would really appreciate any feed back on it. I think that it will work, but I don't really know. Thanks!

[Derian]

This should help out a bit:

http://swordmaiden.com/armor/aden/

[Oisin]

Hey Cib, do you rememeber where you got that photo above? I was just looking at it, and it looks pretty cool.

[Rocca]

That link is great! Thanks!

[Cib]

Hey Cib, do you rememeber where you got that photo above? I was just looking at it, and it looks pretty cool.

Ya, it is a costume a guy I know (sorta) is making for a short film he is shooting this summer. I could see if I could get you more details on it if you want.

[Oisin]

Yeah, if he wouldn't mind sharing his pattern, that would be excellent. I think I've got it figured out from the photo, but I'm not sure.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

Oisin,

I am the guy Cib showed you a picture of, (he directed me to this forum and I joined.)









As stated above, this was made for a movie project. It's main concerns were comfort, cost, labor, and looks. It was not made for real combat as it would probably cause the paint to flake after repeated blows and/or heavy usage. I used plastic plates and my estimated production time is about two days per suit with only one person working on it. It is very stiff, therefore it ends above the waist and has extra lower plates laced on in the opposite direction loosely to allow someone to bend over easily in it. If you want any more information you could email me at hothir1 (AT) yahoo.com.

[Oisin]

Ok, yeah, that's how I thought you were doing it. It looks really neat, but I think that pattern would probably be overly heavy and stiff in metal. Great costume look, though. Which movie is it for?

Btw, how is the rotational flexibility? Assuming a cuirasse ending above the waist, how much flexibility do you lose?

[Rocca]

That resource was great, thank you for the link.

[Rocca]

Uh oh . . . I was just going over the rules for the armour and I think that maybe the lacing on the back of my design wont work . . . The rules say that the armour is not allowed to be able to catch fingers - is that just between plates/lamallar or does the tying mechanism count?

[Derian]

Can't catch fingers under normal fighting circumstances. If it's just lacing like the lamellar examples posted in this thread, you'll have no problem.

[Cib]

Welcome and thanks for the info Hothir. I am still amazed at how real that plastic looks! The hole thing looks amazing. Can't wait to see the film when it is done.

[Hothir Ethelnor]

Ok, yeah, that's how I thought you were doing it. It looks really neat, but I think that pattern would probably be overly heavy and stiff in metal. Great costume look, though. Which movie is it for?

It's for an independant student project that I am working on though I hope to develope a feature based on it if it's successful at film fests and such.

Btw, how is the rotational flexibility? Assuming a cuirasse ending above the waist, how much flexibility do you lose?

It is only as flexible vertically as the material it's made of which means basically none if made from steel. horizontally it is pretty flexible almost to the point of being able to make matching bracers for the arms from it. (it looks a little funny on tyhe arms though and I think it would break combat rules since you could get something caught on the plates if you have it bending so much.

As far as a curaisse that ends ABOVE the waist you should be perfectly comfortable as long as you leave enough room for your arms to move.