Author |
Message |
undertaker9076
|
Post subject: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:44 pm |
|
Recruit |
 |
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:23 pm Posts: 29
Realm: BSG Belegarth
Unit: The Original BSG
Favorite Fighting Styles: 1. Glaive 2. Long Spear 3. Spear and Shield 4. Sword and open hand
|
|
Ok, I've played a lot of games and seen a lot of stuff on the Romans and their gathering up and doing a tortoise with all the shields to protect from missile weapons and the like. Anyone ever try this? I will say I've never actually participated in a battle yet, so I figure from just looking around that only the guys that emulate actual Roman tactics would even be capable of it, but I figure if you got the size and number of shields you could do a halfway version of it. Just an idea though, I kinda have a feeling people tried and found it a bit pointless to do it all.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Crynolyn
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 6:29 pm |
|
Veteran |
 |
 |
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:31 pm Posts: 1952 Location: Loveland, Colorado
Started Fighting: 23 Oct 1999
Realm: Geek Fight Club
Unit: Dark Angels
|
|
|
Top |
|
 |
undertaker9076
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:10 pm |
|
Recruit |
 |
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:23 pm Posts: 29
Realm: BSG Belegarth
Unit: The Original BSG
Favorite Fighting Styles: 1. Glaive 2. Long Spear 3. Spear and Shield 4. Sword and open hand
|
|
Always seem like a disorderly mob, not a good bunch of guys moving as one. And seems like no one can really capture anything in particular and keep with it for a good view of happenings with the whole organized chaos going on. What the heck is "Double Green" even suppose to be? I know what red, blue, and green are standard, but double green?
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Derian
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:25 pm |
|
Become One With the Wind |
 |
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 4:20 pm Posts: 5954 Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Started Fighting: 01 Apr 2001
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Hellhammer
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword & Board
Pronouns: He / Him
|
|
Yeah, there really is no organization in the manner you're thinking of. It's simply not necessary or advantageous in our game.
'Double Green' is a green thrust delivered with two hands. The attacker calls out 'double green' to let the defender know that the strike had two hands and thus pierces through armor.
_________________ - Derian -
"An octopus has eight arms, three hearts, five *, two Super Bowl rings, a beak, and the power to solve crimes."
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Peanut of Loderia
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:47 pm |
|
Mercenary |
 |
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:01 pm Posts: 642
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Loderia
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board
|
|
The tortoise formation was a good way for the roman legion to protect itself from arrow volleys. Since we have no arrow volleys, the move is not really practical since it leaves you open to any number of charging attacks.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
undertaker9076
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:36 pm |
|
Recruit |
 |
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:23 pm Posts: 29
Realm: BSG Belegarth
Unit: The Original BSG
Favorite Fighting Styles: 1. Glaive 2. Long Spear 3. Spear and Shield 4. Sword and open hand
|
|
But couldn't someone make an event to mimic such thing anyway? Pretty sure that's legal if you get people to consent to it. And after not looking at this awhile and watching about 100 videos of battles and all I see why a lot of organization is sorta useless. Helps to keep your guys together since you'd know them and how to keep people from dying too quick, but even that seems to generally be pointless. I still say a Tortoise would be kinda fun to see and it was also used to defend from cavalry since it's be recorded a full legion in a tortoise could have a cavalry unit charge over their shields and no man in the formation would be injured. I am glad I now know what double green is. That's just gonna suck to get hit by though... "Aw...pierces armor..."
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Jay HellHammer
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:38 pm |
|
Monkey |
 |
 |
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:01 pm Posts: 176
Started Fighting: 01 Oct 2001
Realm: Dunharrow
Unit: HellHammer
|
|
undertaker9076 wrote: But couldn't someone make an event to mimic such thing anyway? Definitely, how about you? Talk to event coordinators, planners and archers. Say hey I want to run a battle this day at this time. If it's early in the event, most folks might be for it. If it works, they might let you plan other battles, scenarios, etc. Never be afraid to step up and take point in something you want to see or do.
_________________
Sir Misti wrote: 7)Jay I ::heart:: you! His answer is the best again! I will copy and paste it again just so everyone can read it and hopefully live by it.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Peanut of Loderia
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:08 am |
|
Mercenary |
 |
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:01 pm Posts: 642
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Loderia
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board
|
|
The legion had much better formations than the testudo to defend against cavalry. For instance, the phalanx. They'd all lock shield and point their pila forward. Never a good thing to run into.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
D'Vinn
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:50 am |
|
Recruit |
 |
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 1:22 pm Posts: 8
Started Fighting: 09 Apr 2008
Realm: Gilead
Unit: Exile
Favorite Fighting Styles: Spear, single blue
|
|
Go to an event then make conclusions from that and change your fighting style around the game to make you more leathal . Im not telling you not to inovate but Belegarth has been around so long there are things that work and things that dont most of them have been discovered already. And dont over think things too much just have fun.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Cib
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:58 pm |
|
Skull Crusher |
 |
 |
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:40 pm Posts: 1204 Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Arderyth
Unit: Mercenaries of Strathclyde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Short Spear
|
|
Part of the problem with Roman tactics like the Tortoise, are they they require a fair bit of organization and dispassion, and coporation. In Belegarth (and all medieval combat games really) people are their to have fun, not many people finned training in maneuvers and such.. fun (with a few exceptions). And so, when you try to train a group of fighters for something like the Tortoise, they leave, they just what to fight. You got to keep things simple, basic if you want them to work properly. Think of most fighting groups as an untrained rabble, and at most a militia. Armies train consistently, militia train when they can, which is not very often, which makes it difficult to perfect complex maneuvers like the Tortoise. If you are interested in Roman tactic check this site out: http://www.roman-empire.net/army/tactics.htmlI to would love to see a Roman unit that actually used roman tactics properly.
_________________


 Creativity is Key The truth begs for scrutiny, but lies beg for tolerance.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Relg
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:56 pm |
|
Underling |
 |
 |
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:51 pm Posts: 89
Started Fighting: 04 Oct 2008
Realm: Rhovanion
Favorite Fighting Styles: Axe and Board, Red
|
|
Did I detect some irritation in that last comment, Cib? lol
_________________
Warthog wrote: Good game! I play sports!
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Thomas MacFinn
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:50 pm |
|
Hero |
 |
 |
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:14 am Posts: 1472 Location: Louisville, KY
Started Fighting: 01 Nov 2007
Realm: Dun Abhon
|
|
Cib wrote: In Belegarth (and all medieval combat games really) people are their to have fun, not many people finned training in maneuvers and such.. fun (with a few exceptions). And so, when you try to train a group of fighters for something like the Tortoise, they leave, they just what to fight. QFT. ... and it doesn't matter if it is Roman phalanxes or 16th century pikes, some weapons and maneuvers require more organization and boring old drill than a large group of volanteers are willing to devote to them. Quote: I to would love to see a Roman unit that actually used roman tactics properly. Or any other unit using weapons taller than they are in close quarters.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Peanut of Loderia
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2009 12:26 pm |
|
Mercenary |
 |
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:01 pm Posts: 642
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Loderia
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board
|
|
While the Roman legions understood how to create and use a phalanx, it was not their primary formation. They generally used cohorts as they were "handier" and more flexible.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Kyrian
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:23 pm |
|
Hero |
 |
 |
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 1528 Location: Arcadia, CA
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1991
Realm: Andor
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and board florentine archery
|
|
The testudo's strength, i.e., its defensive capabilities against missile weapons are mitigated by the type of battles currently prevalent in Belegarth, namely large skirmish engagements. If a testudo were to appear on the field, I would foresee small groups of quick fighters conducting hit-and-run attacks with missiles, spears, and red weapons. All it would take is a few of the shields to go down, and the "clumpiness" (Is that a word?  ) of the formation would mean it would get probably end up as a DIP (die in place) mission. One way I think that it might be useful is as a hiding and delivery system for other types of forces. If you hide your fastest skirmishers within the middle of the testudo and marched to a good location, you could immediately disperse the testudo and have the skirmishers break off to do their thing.
_________________ "...change requires action, it doesn't just happen. Define your actions by how you think the game should be, not how the game is. The game will follow."--Big Jimmy
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Cib
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:28 pm |
|
Skull Crusher |
 |
 |
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:40 pm Posts: 1204 Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Arderyth
Unit: Mercenaries of Strathclyde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Short Spear
|
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Black Cat
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 8:24 am |
|
Veteran |
 |
 |
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 1:13 am Posts: 1984 Location: Peeuw-tah
Started Fighting: 20 May 2005
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Untamed
|
|
Kyrian wrote: If a testudo were to appear on the field, I would foresee small groups of quick fighters conducting hit-and-run attacks with missiles, spears, and red weapons. All it would take is a few of the shields to go down, and the "clumpiness" (Is that a word?  ) of the formation would mean it would get probably end up as a DIP (die in place) mission. I've got a good name for that: Rigor Mortis Tortoise
_________________ Aquilonian Cheshire Cat Local Bakeneko Black Cat of Ill Omen
We're all mad here! - The Cheshire Cat
The secret lies in Fandir's grasp. Fandir? Thirteen.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Arrakis
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:39 pm |
|
Warning: Knows Math |
 |
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm Posts: 4792 Location: near Newark, NJ
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Goldenvale+East Kingdom
Unit: Omega Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
|
|
Black Cat wrote: Kyrian wrote: If a testudo were to appear on the field, I would foresee small groups of quick fighters conducting hit-and-run attacks with missiles, spears, and red weapons. All it would take is a few of the shields to go down, and the "clumpiness" (Is that a word? :D ) of the formation would mean it would get probably end up as a DIP (die in place) mission. I've got a good name for that: Rigor Mortis Tortoise You're Doing It Wrong. Rigor Tortoise.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Tiberius
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:53 pm |
|
Underling |
 |
 |
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:38 pm Posts: 82
Started Fighting: 01 Jun 2006
Realm: Lowlands
Unit: The House of Scipio
Favorite Fighting Styles: I'm Roman so guess
|
|
The testudeo is only effective if every shield is the same. My men and i tryed to from one and it worked to keep arrows and javs off us but when the enemy charged we got screwed pretty hard. With a smaller number like my unit we managed to form a testudo/phalanx which worked better.
_________________
 Tiberius Petronia Scipio
|
|
Top |
|
 |
undertaker9076
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:30 pm |
|
Recruit |
 |
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:23 pm Posts: 29
Realm: BSG Belegarth
Unit: The Original BSG
Favorite Fighting Styles: 1. Glaive 2. Long Spear 3. Spear and Shield 4. Sword and open hand
|
|
Eh, it was a random thought. Figure my group is going for a more Viking type of thing, just a lot of guys knowing how to fight but not a lot of organization. It'll work. I might just suggest it at an event just to see if people might get a kick out of it. Course it'd by what I'd call Peasant Tortoise, but still yet, it'd be interesting to see if a bunch of miss-matched groups could form a remotely effective formation.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Judas
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:44 pm |
|
Ninja |
 |
 |
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2004 12:31 pm Posts: 1689 Location: Dun Abhon (Louisville, KY)
|
|
undertaker9076 wrote: Figure my group is going for a more Viking type of thing, just a lot of guys knowing how to fight but not a lot of organization. Vikings often used shield wall defense tactics and where also famous for the svinfylking or a "boar formation" -- a wedge formation of 20 to 30 warriors used to charge and overcome an enemy’s line… FYI.
_________________

|
|
Top |
|
 |
Cib
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 9:39 pm |
|
Skull Crusher |
 |
 |
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:40 pm Posts: 1204 Location: Calgary Alberta Canada
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Arderyth
Unit: Mercenaries of Strathclyde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Short Spear
|
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Augustine
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:35 am |
|
Recruit |
 |
 |
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:21 pm Posts: 42 Location: Rhovanion (Bloomington, Indiana)
Realm: Rhovanion
Favorite Fighting Styles: Short sword and tower shield (Gladius and scutum)
|
|
For the sake of argument, the testudo isn't even that effective against volley-fired arrows-- it's effective against rocks, heavy objects thrown from walls, and in some cases, tar or heated fat which flows in such a way over the shields that it lands in the gaps between Legionnaires. Arrows tend to pick up enough momentum to pierce three layers of wood when they're fired as a volley-- the angle they fall at tends to give them just enough to get through.
It is, however, effective against horse archers and skirmishing short-ranged missiles, such as javelins, slingers, and things of that nature.
It's a shame that there's not the desire to be skilled as a unit or the discipline or practicality to pull off a testudo in Bel. I've always been a big proponent of lessening the "let's line up and fight and not pay attention to anything your teammates do" sort of fighting that goes on, and have always thought a bigger emphasis needed to be placed on technique and working as a team.
_________________ Senatus Populusque Romanus.
-It is the lot of the courageous to be sacrificed upon the altar of battle.-
|
|
Top |
|
 |
xexplox
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:14 pm |
|
Recruit |
 |
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2009 11:09 pm Posts: 44
|
|
Crynolyn wrote: There is a Roman unit in Dagorhir. I haven't seen them do a "tortoise" but they're skilled with the shield wall. Here's a video of them, it cuts out because my battery died http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoVKf38eJm4thats the closest tortouise ive ever seen on a video in bel...my compliments too them...where are they located?
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Crynolyn
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:11 am |
|
Veteran |
 |
 |
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 2:31 pm Posts: 1952 Location: Loveland, Colorado
Started Fighting: 23 Oct 1999
Realm: Geek Fight Club
Unit: Dark Angels
|
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Peanut of Loderia
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:18 pm |
|
Mercenary |
 |
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:01 pm Posts: 642
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2007
Realm: Loderia
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board
|
|
If I remember correctly, they're based out of Aratari (sp?) which is in DC. Or Maryland. Somewhere around there.
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Tiberius
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:01 am |
|
Underling |
 |
 |
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:38 pm Posts: 82
Started Fighting: 01 Jun 2006
Realm: Lowlands
Unit: The House of Scipio
Favorite Fighting Styles: I'm Roman so guess
|
|
wow old thread indeed! yeah That Rome is based out of D.C. they also have a group in Buffalo newyork, a small detachment in florida, and i'm trying to start one up in ohio now
_________________
 Tiberius Petronia Scipio
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Cade
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:14 am |
|
Brute |
 |
 |
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:48 am Posts: 552
Realm: Nomad
Unit: Southern Uruk-Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Playing Dead
|
|
Tiberius wrote: wow old thread indeed! yeah That Rome is based out of D.C. they also have a group in Buffalo newyork, a small detachment in florida, and i'm trying to start one up in ohio now Where in Ohio?
|
|
Top |
|
 |
Tiberius
|
Post subject: Re: The Roman Tortoise? Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:28 am |
|
Underling |
 |
 |
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 7:38 pm Posts: 82
Started Fighting: 01 Jun 2006
Realm: Lowlands
Unit: The House of Scipio
Favorite Fighting Styles: I'm Roman so guess
|
|
Toledo
_________________
 Tiberius Petronia Scipio
|
|
Top |
|
 |
|