Belegarth

by **Vak** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:35 pm

I have noticed over the past couple months a lot of talk has been brought up about the Red Sword, not only bad but some good as well. It seems though that actual styles have never really been talked about. You see sword and board, and there are many different "Schools" of fighting with a sword[or bother blue weapon] and shield. Red sword...we somewhat lack that same...I don't want to say uniformity, but it fits.

I have seen many different ways of fighting with a Red Sword, but yet they are never discussed, their pro's and con's. I purposely have been saying Red Sword, because that's the focus I want to stick to.

I have tried a few different styles and I have found two that fit me the best. For fighting with a group of people [ Line fighting, skirmishing ] The "Straight Up" approach works the best for my size and build.

By straight up I mean The blade held in the standard position in front of the individual a little way away from the midsection the tip of the blade pointing Straight Up. It keeps my defense tight and allows for me to put hip into a shield breaking shot.

I know for dueling I tend to fight in a "Straight Down" Sort of manner. Considering I am a shorter fighter I use that to my advantage by pointing the pommel up [crown level.] It allows me to block head to toe for horizontal strikes. This style is however flawed as there are limited strikes to execute from the position and man are low leg taking or quick snap shots. It is almost impossible to deliver a shield breaking hit for me in this manner.

I am cuprous as to what other people use. or even Theoretical "Styles" of red sword fighting. I really hope this Thread fosters some growth.

by **Dabbanoth** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:20 pm

Red fighting is all about physical advantages. If youre strong, hit hard and fast, if youre long, keep them out of reach, theres a million things you can do there. Just get creative and always stay aggressive.

by **deflagratio** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:54 pm

Uargvak try this next time you're dueling. Make the hanging guard you're default return to stance. So launch attacks from positions that are strong in this and always recover into hanging for the easy defense. I think this will go a long way into opening up more shots. Instead of using it as your default stance transition to it at the end of a series of attacks.

by **Hatchet** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:29 pm

*Shrug* I don't like the sword point up in front of you because; against sword and board it invites getting your weapon knocked out. Hanging guard is my default stance since some people get tricked and have their legs cut out from under them so to speak.

Also the swing, turn around, run, and reset is a popular option.

by **Ralimar** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:31 pm

I think that the mechanics of our game lend the greatest advantage to shield fighters with fast weapons. I'll say it's an "un-historical" advantage that has been given to to the Punch 'n' Flail fighter, which is the same disadvantage to using a long, heavy two-handed sword. So I believe that if you're going to be a two-handed fighter to be reckoned with, you need to have the same understanding of game mechanics as a fighter with a punch shield and 12 oz blue sword.

So, these are two basic essentials: Very few effective two-handed shots are from a back-swing. So, your two handed sword should always be a single-edged weapon.
From a playability standpoint, it makes your weapon lighter.
From a historical standpoint, it's not the way Europeans did it, but it's the way that the Japanese did it. And if you ask me, the Japanese were far more sophisticated with their practice of two-handed sword combat.

Ideally, your two-handed sword should "flex" between 25 and 35 degrees. Or up to 44 degrees, if you can get it to pass. It's cheesy, but it's cheesy in the same way that a punch shield or a 12 oz. speed flail is cheesy.
From historical/safety standpoint, a two-handed sword loses most of its practical application. This is because a two-handed sword that swings hard enough to take people off their feet or break equipment like a Real sword would is too dangerous to pass weapons check.
From a playability standpoint, using a flexing red sword is understanding the mechanics of your game. You use the flex of your sword the same way that a flail fighter uses "pop-shots"s to get around shields. Both are unrealistic; they serve the competitive essence of our game.

It's definitely not a "purist" set of ideas. But in our sport, the staunch re-enactor types generally don't win a lot of fights with their riveted chain, 3 lb longswords and plywood strap shields.

by **Hatchet** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:20 am

I like your thinkin' Ralimar.

by **Big King Jimmy** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:37 am

I was talking to some people about the 2 obvious school of red sword fighting, power fighting and finesse fighting, at some point. I'm just saying that if you want to talk about different schools that's a good way to start.

by **Vak** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:53 am

Awesome this is what I really wanted to foster discussion about. Ralimar I like that bit you wrote about and it is very true that the Sword and boarder has a bit of an "advantage" but that just means we have to get better.

And Big Jimmy those really are the two big types of fighting I think of when I think of the majority of red fighters. Then a Balanced style in between. Although majority fall into the Finesse or Power Styles.

by **Arrakis** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:26 am

Ralimar, single-edging does indeed make your weapon lighter, but it does remove a couple of historical red sword strikes from your repertoire.

I'm kind of new to red sword and I'm trying to take instruction and inspiration from everywhere I can find it. I'm reading about the historical wards and strikes used in European longsword fencing, watching red sword duel vids on YouTube, and just trying things out.

Something I'd like to see more of is stabbing tips on red swords. They give you a whole 'nother dimension to work in.

This thread is a most welcome one thread indeed.

by **Vak** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:37 pm

Very true. Stabbing reds do add so much to how they are used. And I take a lot of how I fight from historical stuff as well and watching You Tube. Also a good inspiration for those who use lighter reds (or are super strong and can use big reds like small reds.) Anime. While its really super cheesy some of that crazy stuff is useful or has some sort of real life base. Ruroni Kenshin Is an awesome one, he switches a lot from two handed to one handed, and I take a lot from that.

by **deflagratio** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:47 pm

You probably want to check out the Way of the Samurai games. Most of the styles used with the weapons are actually well researched.

by **Ralimar** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:57 pm

deflagratio wrote:You probably want to check out the Way of the Samurai games. Most of the styles used with the weapons are actually well researched.

Like the Afro-ninja style!

by **Hatchet** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:02 pm

Also a good inspiration for those who use lighter reds (or are super strong and can use big reds like small reds.) Anime.

In our sport a lot of anime-esque attacks and blocks work....

Also play Soul Calibur 2 a lot with Mitsurgi, Yoshimitsu, and Nightmare. When I first started Red Sword I basically mimicked the styles and attack and a lot of them work. Nightmare and Mitsurugi from what I can gather are mostly historically accurate anyway.

by **Arrakis** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:25 pm

What do y'all's swords weigh, anyhow? I got hold of a postal scale lately and found out that my newest Red-Green, a 52" double-edged, 4 layers of blue on the blade side counterweighted critter with a 10" handle, weighs in at 34.5 oz (2# 2.5oz.).

Weigh in on this weighty matter!

by **Olos** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:25 pm

I use a light red sword, i think it's about 52 inches, and around 25-26 ounces, and a decent amount of flex.

If I'm being serious about using the red, i wear all my armor, and it helps a lot more than it does with sword and board.

I basically just swing until either the person i'm swinging at dies or I die (often it's me dying, and fast), mostly using instinct to aim my shots, directing them to openings when I see them. Unfortunately, this causes me to hit a little harder on non-shield targets than I really should sometimes, but I'm working on control/technique.

Overall, I'm not that good yet, but I get kills through intensity alone pretty much. Also, I find that with the red with more flex, it's harder to get a solid red hit, as some of the force from the swing is absorbed by the flex.

Anyway, that's basically it for me, don't know what you'd classify it as.

by **Elebrim** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:02 am

Here's a tip I got a while ago for fighting against a heavily armored or shielded opponent: Aim for kill shots, not for shield-breakers. Yes, red weapons can break shields, but as a swordsman and not a glaiveman you are at a distinct disadvantage in range. The red sword must be fundamentally more aggressive than the glaive, because the glaive can work more easily with a partner and rain in blows from a safer position. The sword, on the other hand, is right up front and because of that every shot must count.

Aim for the torso or (if you have the skill to safely land the shot) the open shoulders consistently. Even if your initial shot is blocked, you just landed a red shot on their shield and because of the aggressive attack probably surprised your opponent, letting you fire off a few more. Leg-and-leave works too, but only do this if you can effectively retreat and then use the longer blade length to your advantage later on.

by **Arrakis** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:50 am

I guess I should have mentioned flex. My sword is built on half-inch square fiberglass and doesn't flex but about 10 degrees if you shake it hard.

Elebrim, that sounds like good advice. I don't really try to break shields intentionally, since that method requires three to four hits to score a kill whereas aiming for open body and limb targets only requires one to two hits for a kill.

by **Thomas MacFinn** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:22 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3DhjFUOG6Y

by **Ralimar** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:00 pm

I watched a little bit of the youtube video, and the first couple techniques are nearly identical to kendo katas.

by **Arrakis** » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:02 pm

Go farther, Ral. It gets right strange and unique.

I really wish I lived near the EMP group so I could use some of the crosshilt/grappling/pommel strike stuff.

by **Sleeper** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:11 pm

The only way to get good at redsword fighting, IMO, is by fighting with the particular redsword you wish to use, stick with it for a long time and go against every possible threat. This means taking on shieldmen alone, fighting glaivemen, even finding ways to overcome an archer. I started out with the six footers, as a result I can swing the lil 50 inch reds quite fast. But one thing everybody is gonna have to come to terms with is, redswords, no matter the length, will always be at a disadvantage when compared to a shieldmen. I try to take on shieldmen one on one whenever I can, but when faced with a good shieldmen, I die every time. I do have good runs here and there but on a normal scale, redsworders die, probably, the most of all weapon combinations.

I am trying to convince one of my "staff" here to bring her camcorder to our practice field. If things work out I am going to try and get footage of how a redsword can walk over multiple shieldmen and can succesfully overcome glaives and flourentiners. I will throw it on youtube whenever we get all the clips done.

by **Ryu** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:36 pm

in most serious red fighting, i will wear all my armor as well as a bucker that matches to the size of a small round shield(lol) as for my sword, its a six footer with stab and ways nearly 4lbs, flex in minimal(20degrees max). when fighting a sword and board i will stand and deliver, never run, it gets you killed quicker. the best luck i have is if the first shot is aimed at the leg not the shield

by **Hatchet** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:37 pm

i will stand and deliver, never run, it gets you killed quicker.

Hmm, I'd say the exact opposite. Being static against a shieldman is playing to their advantage [huge defense and the ability to close with minimal worry as far as getting hit] while playing down the advantage of the red [reach].

It may be the honorable and epic thing to stand and deliver against a shield man god-forbid a shield line it's no offense and in my opinion, stupid. There are times when standing against certain shieldman [newbies for example] because; sometimes they hesitate when they just see a red guy just chilling. I am of the opinion the best way to face a shield man is to out maneuver him [moving backwards faster than he can catch you as you keep wacking at him is a good example.]

by **Oratelb** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:40 pm

when you guys say flex. you mean when the sword is in motion or the shape? >_>';;

by **Arrakis** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:39 pm

When we say flex, we mean how much the sword will bend or "flex" when it is struck hard against, say, the edge of a shield.

by **Oratelb** » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:16 pm

ahh, nice thanks ^_^

by **Alchemist** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:20 pm

I'm new to Belegarth, but one thing I learned from baseball is this: never use a batting stance that makes it harder to put the bat where the ball is. For Bele I would say that means not using a guard/position that means you have to make extra motions to strike. I've seen several posts here and other boards that mention using the middle guard for a non-stabbing red. This doesn't seem to make sense because the most natural attack from that guard is a thrust.

I know this isn't exactly on topic, but I think it falls well withing talking about red mentality.

by **Sir Roland** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:46 pm

Alchemist wrote:I'm new to Belegarth, but one thing I learned from baseball is this: never use a batting stance that makes it harder to put the bat where the ball is. For Bele I would say that means not using a guard/position that means you have to make extra motions to strike. I've seen several posts here and other boards that mention using the middle guard for a non-stabbing red. This doesn't seem to make sense because the most natural attack from that guard is a thrust.

I know this isn't exactly on topic, but I think it falls well withing talking about red mentality.

good idea in theory, but if your standing with your red sword on the right side of your body, how are you planning on defending against the shot that may (and probably will) come to the left side of your body. Its a defensive stance, not a power stance

by **Arrakis** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:30 pm

Though, truth be told, if you're in a defensive stance and squared up against anything but another redsword or a glaive or spear (something that has more reach than you), you're doing it wrong.

ABUSE your reach!

by **Exo** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:21 am

I've become somewhat skilled with a min-red, and there are few limitations to what can be done with one. Wearing full armor I'm confident I could take almost any sword and boarder I see with at least 50% win percentage. My main issues stem from distance weapons such as spears and missiles.

I use both a standard straight stance and a wide sword out sweeping stance. Situational uses for each and the angles are very important with red combat. I also throw a back-shield into the mix often.

by **Forkbeard** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:28 pm

Get a buckler. You can swat arrows out of the air. Nothing * off archers more than when you slap down an arrow and laugh at them as you charge.
With 4' swords(my Fav) I try to keep the sword vertical and rael close to my body. I block most shots with lateral moves that keep it there so I can crash it down on the bad guy and snap it back up for more blocking.
I think I'm going to make a 4' hammer to use with my Big sheild. I don't know how it will work. We'll see.
FB

by **Soo Ma Tai** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:37 pm

i don't know if you remember that big hammer we had in Stygias realm, but the thing with it was to keep your momentum up. Otherwise it was very unwieldy.

by **Forkbeard** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:46 am

I decided that 4' was too big for one hand all the time.
Now the new hammer is gonna be about 36" nad it's gonna be sick.
I think I'll make a 4' one also, just because.
I'm trying to make the heads a little closer to a real hammer head. Actualy, the whole weapon is of pretty realistic proportions. The haft is a little thick and it's lighter than it ought to be, but over all, it's pretty close to the real thing.
I', going to start a thread on it in weapon smithing.
FB

by **Arrakis** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:10 am

Cool times, Fork. Only problem with realistically-sized hammer heads is that it's harder to pad them safely and harder to get a weapon with that as the only striking surface (it being such a tiny surface) passed. And easier to haft with.

by **Keisai, of Amaterasu** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:20 pm

hmmm.. reading over all the fighters.. this is interesting... i find that i can use my red as an unbreakable shield when i fight with my dagger on side.. i intend to get full Armor for my right arm.. and a buckler for my left... could make things interesting.. i usually hold my red down with an icehandle when i fight with my dagger otherwise i keep my red up on my shoulder or out in front of me... i find it amusing to wait for an opponent with
Sword & Board to swing... then pop his arm off... a simple swing... just let them swing.. and pop at the arm quickly then its a swordless shield to kick over and slaughter... several people say i fight like a snake for this reason... its rather amusing... but its easy to laugh at shields with my red.. because when i fight with it upright i tend to take a horse stance and take low... i can block pretty much everything like that... Reds are fun weapons... and are enjoyably heavier... i love a good challenge... which is why it helps... heh...

by **Isk** » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:37 pm

by **Poo** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:44 pm

not even just a necro, that one **** sucked.

by **Isk** » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:35 pm

Writing red italics and ending every sentence with '...' doesn't bode well for the content.

by **Keisai, of Amaterasu** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:03 pm

Tiz the way i type.
i like HTML so i took the font coloring you have on the site and used it.
i dont much have a care for what others think.

eh.. so oh well.

by **Poo** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:31 pm

god damnit, one of these kids again. Listen buddy, one of you comes along once in awhile, coloring their font, and touting that they don't care what others think. you get flamed by just about everyone on the boards for awhile, and you finally learn that acting like a **** tool is not worth it. So just **** GROW UP.

by **Ralimar** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:26 pm

Poo wrote:god damnit, one of these kids again. Listen buddy, one of you comes along once in awhile, coloring their font, and touting that they don't care what others think. you get flamed by just about everyone on the boards for awhile, and you finally learn that acting like a **** tool is not worth it. So just **** GROW UP.

Yeah! Kick his internet *, Poo!! Take his lunch money!

by **Slagar** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:37 pm

Poo sucks! Nobody likes him, and you should ignore his advice!

Sorry, too much time in general mayhem lately. You should probably let this thread die, though.

by **Poo** » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:43 pm

good work slagar, you know your stuff. though this was a great thread and i'd like to see a new one about the same topic.

by **Judas** » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:17 am

Uargvak wrote:By straight up I mean The blade held in the standard position in front of the individual a little way away from the midsection the tip of the blade pointing Straight Up. It keeps my defense tight and allows for me to put hip into a shield breaking shot.

This is basically what I do; the Germans called it The Plow, although I point my sword at my opponent’s eyes instead of holding the blade completely vertical. This does a couple of things. First it annoys your opponent and makes it hard for them to judge your range and distance. It also can make them think twice about pushing in on you, this is when you throw your shot, while they’re thinking. Lastly, at least in SCA fighting, it sets me up for a face thrust. Since Belegarth doesn’t require a great deal of power to land a sufficient blow it may allow you to make a snap shot to the shoulder (or top of the shield), drop it to your opponent’s lower leg or chop off the sword arm as it comes out from behind their shield. I keep my hands about 10 inches apart, allowing me to use my upper hand (my right) as a pivot and my lower one (left) to guide the blade. I keep my right shoulder back and my left slightly forward; this lets me throw a very powerful shot by using my torso and not just my arms. Knees bent a little and feet firmly planted.

by **Argyll** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:26 pm

i fight kinda like ur 'straight up' method, but i try to keep my opponent off balance when fighting with either a red, or long-handled blue sword (as is my preference for single blue), by changing my stance as the fight fits. For some opponents who are inclined to rush against a fighter wielding a two-hander, I find that fighting in more of kendo or gumdo stance works best. This is when you angle your sword forward with the tip of th sword pointing towards your opponents face. You will find yourself quickly flowing into more agressive attacks as the stance demands it, and your opponent is much less ready to run you down.

A high guard is useful too for people who are scared as **** of you and just hope u don't kill them for real. This is obviously when you fight with your sword nearly over your head and attack agressively with downward sweeping attacks. Figure out quickly how to not deliver head shots from this position, and then use it to diminsh your opponents composure as you raise their guard up and force them to yield the defensive.

edit: * judas we're on the same page. must be that whole bloodthirsty celt thing.

hand position wise, the standard position, judas and i are also on the same page. Keeping distance between your hands and designating the right hand as a pivot allows for quick succession of attacks and maximizes defense, but i find also that if a shorter lighter red is your preference, allowing yourself to loosen your grip to the bottom of the handle for maximal range, often even to a single handed grip in cooperation with the correct however quite difficult footwork will keep your opponent off balance, and get you some cheap kills.

by **Titan G** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 12:55 pm

don't stand and bang with a shield man, they'll get you. pretty basic. you should rock a shieldmens * off when your in a line. once the line is broken your ****, so don't let the line get broken.

by **Redeemed** » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:26 pm

Hatchet Warrior wrote: I am of the opinion the best way to face a shield man is to out maneuver him [moving backwards faster than he can catch you as you keep wacking at him is a good example.]

im in agreement with the hatchet warrior. red has to be my favortie way to go, and since im a light build and am fairly adept at backpeddaling, this is the way i deal with sheild fighters. As to the position of the sword, i don't know if there is a technical term for it, but i generally hold the sword down at my waist and pointed back, sorta as if in a sheath at the hip. gives power to the shot, a twist of your torso brings the blade at a diagonal in front of you and so can be used for blocking, plus i enjoy swinging the blade horizontal at the opponent, but instead of carrying the shot through, which generally leaves you backside open for a counter attack, i stop the momentum just as the point comes around facing my opponent, then thrust quickly. It can earn you a very surprised grunt and a "dead" from your opponent more often than you might think

and yes, i believe all reds should be stabby

by **DJordan** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:54 pm

I have been working on a "style of red fighting" for a little sketch of time now and i have based it on a videogame charecters stance with a large sword. Most might otomaticly find it flawed for the game part but hear me out. Look at nightmare from soul calibur___ http://www.gamerdna.com/uimage/Z4aodvJ/ ... re-jpg.jpg
replace the demon arm with a descent buckler and the demon sword with a red. from this position the length of my red is a bit distorted and hidden behind my sheild, also a starting position for a strong and solid first blow. After that I've been keeping the blade and my self in quik fluid motions focusing on defense a wee bit more than offense but returning to a standstill is rare. shure its not perfected but I've only been doing it for about 8 practices. Any thoughts would be nice.

by **Poo** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:26 pm

I just lost all capacity for thought after reading that, sorry.

by **Arrakis** » Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:42 pm

Sleeper from Dur-D uses a lot of Soul Caliber-type moves and he's pretty good with a 6-footer. Best I've seen with a sword that long, in fact.

Belegarth

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