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 Post subject: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:40 am 
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I was just looking at the dag rules again and found this gem:
4.10.2 - If a blow strikes a sheathed weapon (i.e., one that is attached/hanging from one's belt or over one's back) or any other worn object, including baggy clothing such as cloaks, the attack is considered to have hit the fighter. A weapon must be in a fighter's hand to intercept an attack.

I don't think we need such a rule and I don't want to start a thread discussing dag rules. My question is, what is our stance on the baggy clothing defense? I have a couple of guys that fought in wool ponchos over the winter and if the sword got tangled in their poncho on the way in, it would usually feel light to them. I encouraged them to take hits a little lighter while wearing the ponchos, but I don't think any hit to their poncho should count as a kill. Is there an official Belegarth position on taking hits with baggy garb on?

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:30 am 
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Theres a large difference in a shot that only hit garb- Moved leg still hit the baggy pants. and the shot that I throw and you toss a cloak into it and catch it like some zorro ****. That was the intended part of the dag rule, its just worded poorly.

Ive never seen it been a problem and anyone who does that crap is going to get told by a Marshal/Herald they are being a douche and to cut it out or they need to take the cloak off and watch their skill plummet.


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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:48 am 
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If your swing has the ability to get "lost in a poncho on the way in" you're doing it wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:58 am 
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What Jimmy said. Sir Borric used to fight in a heavy wool cloak on occasion. If we hit light because some cloth got in the way, nobody expected him to take it. Just put some shoulder into it, and lay the dudes out.

That being said, if the guys are using cloaks in a manner that might become an entanglement issue, then there may be cause for concern. No amount of body mechanics will unwind a hem from your neck. For ponchos, though, I think you're probably fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:17 am 
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We are talking about thick, wool, blanket-like ponchos here. If poncho man's arm is straight out to his side and the poncho comes to his elbow, a swing directed at his torso has to move over a foot of heavy cloth with plenty of inertia before it hits body. They still got hit, the shots had just diminished to where they were light. Leather warskirts have a very similar problem, IME. I guess the typical Belegarth answer of "just hit them harder" works as well as telling them to take lighter hits in the poncho or armor.

Varadin wrote:
anyone who does that crap is going to get told by a Marshal/Herald they are being a douche and to cut it out or they need to take the cloak off and watch their skill plummet.
This seems like the reasonable approach to me for intentionally using garb as a defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:20 pm 
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Cloaks...I would never have thought about wearing this in battle. I'm surprised more people don't trip and fall because of them. I think the original rule has something to do with stuff being between a sword and a target area, not hitting an item that doesn't have a target behind it, hence the specific reference to sheaths. It is not surprising that certain articles (hard leather pouches, sheaths, ect) could completely soak the force out of swings, so it would not be noticeable.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:01 am 
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I fight SCA. Theres a guy at my local practice who wears a leather pouch on his belt over his right hip. He keeps his SCAtype papers and such in there. It's never been a problem till now. I hit him right on it regularly. That 4" pouch soaks all the juice out of very hard rattan sword blows.
I'm just saying that little things matter.
I wouldn't tell them to take lighter hits. I feel that sets a bad precedent. I'd just tell everyone else to either hit them harder or stab them. Or they could take off the ponchos.
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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:31 am 
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<rant>

Yeah, I was at that War Council when they voted on it...I wanted to gouge my eyes out with a hot poker when it passed unanimously.

In Dag, you CANNOT call garb. Calling garb means that you acknowledged, and NOTICED, the weapon came in contact (even just your clothes) and as such, it had "noticeable" force. This drives me up the **** wall.

There's a lot of cool dudes out there who don't enforce this, but some take it as being the same as "nope, not taking that shot", instead of "that was close, but it didn't hit me".

</rant>

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:59 pm 
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I was thinking more along the lines of Varadin, personally, but if that is the official position, intended by the war council, this needs to be added to the wiki. Wow, it sucks, though.

Wiki has been updated to reflect Dacian's input regarding calling 'garb' in Dag.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:38 pm 
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I know this is off topic, but does this also mean in Dag you can't call light?
Becuase thats the gayest thing ever, were it to be true. It'll also be another thread in another forum.
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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:46 pm 
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yes FB thats right cause for you to call a shot light means you have to have noticed it, and that constitutes noticeable force.


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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:30 pm 
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So, Dag is now trying to become amtgard but full of lame and less skill?

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:09 am 
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That is the saddest thing I've heard lately.
Well, I'm out of the "support Dag" game.
**** 'em. Without sufficent force as a rule, I won't fight. It reduces us to a tap larp. Not a fighting game.
100% different.
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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 8:58 am 
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this is like the gambison(sp?) debate, if i wear one it is harder to get the same force to my body than without it. obviously if they take advantage of that, it fails for creative interpretation of the rules to gain an advantage. now with cold weather it is necessary to mantain warmth, so they just need to lighten the required force of blows and they should be fine.

or option b, stop swing like a limp wristed noodle arm, lol ( joking)

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:31 pm 
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Ferrin wrote:
yes FB thats right cause for you to call a shot light means you have to have noticed it, and that constitutes noticeable force.


No, that's not true. There are weenies in any group that will whine. They're missing the other two pertinent words in that rule: "solidly" and "force".

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 3:05 am 
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Kyrax, all the dag peeps I have fought with out here in the West are on the same page with us. They will call light and expect to get hit solidly and that's what the solidly with noticeable force means to them. The difference between dag and bel in the west mostly consists of how big the heads of our javelins are now required to be.

This discussion is about how Belegarth handles baggy, heavy, loose and padded garb. The current dag MoA wording is not so ambiguous as the whole noticeable issue and states explicitly that if a shot hits a worn object such as baggy clothing the strike should be taken as a solid hit. IME with dag people out here, that is not how they actually play. No one I have personally sparred with has called me a cheater for calling garb on a shot that solidly tangled in my baggy pants, but didn't strike my leg. The problem is, if the rule is enforced as it is written in the MoA, I am cheating when a shot strikes my very baggy pants. Why have rules if they are ignored?

Back to discussing how we deal with the effects of baggy garb and padded clothing in BELEGARTH:
Bo, I think there is a continuum between bare skin and solid plate. A gambeson, cloak, loose heavy clothing of any kind, are all somewhere in between on that continuum. I have heard several people comment that when they are wearing hardened leather or solid iron armor, they listen for good shots more than feel them. Hit them harder is always good, but in this game a person really should be able to throw a shot with the same, solid, force against the bare-chested, blue-painted pict and the fully iron-encased knight and expect them both to take it. That means some degree of adjusting your shot calibration to what you are wearing, IMHO, of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:11 am 
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One of the biggest reasons I stopped wearing armor is that it's freakin' impossible to notice national-field-calibration shots in it. If I didn't see/hear a hit, I probably didn't notice it, and that just doesn't fly in our game. Being able to adjust your hit-taking to what you're wearing is very important, and it's something that people need to be responsible for. That being said, there's nothing wrong with putting some extra shoulder into your shots when fighting someone in leather or plate. Makes everybody's day a whole lot easier, y'know?

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:30 am 
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slagar if people arent making you feel a shot through leather they arent throwing hard enough. That shouldnt even be a hit outside of armor.


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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:45 am 
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Nah. I'm just kinda dense. Comes from too many years of sparring my brothers with unpadded sticks, and from rugby. My sensation threshholds are kinda screwed up. The community has decided what's 'hard enough', and it's my job to play to that standard. If I have too much trouble doing that in armor, then I just don't wear any. To put it simply, I'm naturally thick-skinned, and it's my responsibility to deal with that.

I do my best to adjust calibrations higher, to insist that people hit more solidly, but at some point I'm either playing the same game as everybody else, or I'm not. If I want to participate on the national field, then I have to play by the same rules as everybody else. When I'm in armor, my threshholds are just not within what the community has set. Hopefully harder-hitting fighting will become more prevalent as the game grows and evolves, but for the time being, it is what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Slagar wrote:
I do my best to adjust calibrations higher, to insist that people hit more solidly, but at some point I'm either playing the same game as everybody else, or I'm not.

QFT. I agree completely that when I am faced with someone in armor or heavy clothing, I will be sure to hit them harder and I think we also agree that sufficient force shouldn't have a different threshold just because someone put on armor or a winter coat. You're not the first or the only person that I have heard, thick-skinned or otherwise, comment that they at least have to be much more aware in hard armor because the hits are less noticeable.

Armor and obstructive clothing absorb force from a blow. The question really is, is the person swinging the one responsible for making it "sufficient" in spite of the defender's impact absorbing equipment or is the defender wearing the dampening gear responsible for taking hits that would have been "sufficient" without the gear?

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:33 pm 
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Good question Isk.
I believe it MY sole responsiblity to do my opponents the honor of hitting them correctly. I am the one responsible for sufficient force, despite their clothing.
I, therefore, hit people like I am trying to KILL them. Not touch them, or tag them. This seems to translate well through any type of clothing.
Conversly, when I am hit I expect to feel like I have been hit with the intent to kill me. If I am wearing 1/4" thick leather that is hard as wood, I still feel the peice of armor move from impacts of sufficent force. It is my reponsibilty to do my opponents the honor of taking those hits or calling "light" if I felt they are somehow lacking. If the hit isn't enough to move the armor a detectable amount, I can't be held responisble for not calling it.
When my clothing is hit and my body is not, I call "garb".
Thats how I have always played this game. It seems to work well enough. It's the way the rules say to play it.
RANT::If anything, I feel we need to increase the amount of light calls we make. I see way too many people taking a little rub from a club to their back or shoulder as a good hit. While thier are people who can deliver this shot well, like every other shot, it doesn't always land the way it was intended. I feel that people taking these crap shots is one of the cuases of the upsurge in club use. Calling light shots light would go a long way towards corecting this growing problem on our fields. ::RANT
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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Calling light shots light would go a long way towards corecting this growing problem on our fields. ::RANT
FB


This makes everyone's job easier, I know I forget to call light sometimes when a shot hits so. I know this is taking what you said kinda out of context, but please EVERYONE do us who fights you and who herald a favor, if you think a shot is light call the thing already it's when you don't (or when you call everyone's shots light) that people think you're a rhino.

Summation of this really short post:

Acknowledge the * hit, if you got hit hard enough take the thing, if it hits your garb only SAY SO, if it didn't hit you hard enough SAY SO, everyone will be much happier.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:22 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:37 am 
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I concur.

And stop getting hit in the arm, walking 3 steps after I turn around and then throwing a shot with that arm, and then calling yourself dead.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:36 pm 
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Fork thanks for the great response, I like the game to be solid and hard-hitting and I like the approach you are advocating for keeping it that way. I think Davit nailed a really important part of the issue, as well.

When I herald I often find I have a major inner struggle going on because I don't want to call someone dead when a shot was light and I couldn't feel it from 10 feet away, but I am there to keep rhinos in check and help keep the game moving along. At least on my own field, I would feel comfortable announcing, "I will be heralding now. I expect communication from the players. If I see a shot hit you or your garb I will call a hit for you if you do not either take the shot or call light or garb." I don't know that I'd take that approach on an event field, but on a practice field it should help train them to communicate.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:12 pm 
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FB's post has me a little concerned that solid, well-placed shots might get called light by the people receiving them. I am not talking about anything that skims, hits garb, or comes off the shield, weapon, other non-targets. Honestly, it's a load of crap to think that you have to be injured by my foam weapon to take the shot...After all, aren't we are pretending that these are bladed weapons? There is no need to tell people to hit less hard, but there is a real difference between a well-placed, solid shot from a shot that was partially blocked or that skimmed off a non-target. If I hit your shoulder and you were too * slow to block it, your * is dead, even if I ain't a dude that weighs 300lbs and hits like a truck. I already took the time to learn how to hit you six times, now you need to learn how to block or take your hits.

Also, I do greatly agree with the consensus that calling light or garb is preferable to saying nothing, and please understand that I agree many shots can fit into this category. I just want to say that I have seen this misused.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:52 pm 
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Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
even if I ain't a dude that weighs 300lbs and hits like a truck. I already took the time to learn how to hit you six times, now you need to learn how to block or take your hits.


Yeah, now learn how to do it with sufficient force. I've met 100-115lb girls who could literally bruise with every shot if they wanted to (looking at you, Sidra and Anya). Excuses suck, quit making 'em. If lots of different people are calling your shots light, then they're probably light. One or two rhinos running around are pretty easy to spot. So are fighters who don't throw shots right.

I can't tell you how many times I've listened to "They're just ignoring my shots because I'm a girl." *. People won't take shots if you hit like a girl, no matter whether you've got * or not. So don't.

Sorry, personal pet peeve. By now I've taught enough girls to swing that those who'd rather complain than learn how annoy me a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:48 pm 
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Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip
Ana, you read it all wrong.
Quote:
Honestly, it's a load of crap to think that you have to be injured by my foam weapon to take the shot

You don't need to injure someone with a foam sword for it to be a good shot. You need to throw shots that would injure someone IF YOU WERE USING A REAL SWORD.
Some stupid people seem to think that real swords are like lightsabers. A mere touch will take your arm off. This could not be further from the truth. To injure a limb enough to REMOVE THAT LIMB FROM COMBAT takes skill. You not only have to hit reasonably hard, you have to hit the right way. Otherwise it's just a flesh wound. Flesh wounds do not kill, they do not stop you from using the limb. Sure, they may get infected later and the guy might die a week down the road, but by that time he killed the rest of your family and burned down your town.
Sufficent force has always been defined to me, by the people I learned to play this game from, as a hit that is hard enough to kill you were it delivered using a real weapon. That's how I play and thats how I teach other people to play. Anything less and I'm off to find a differnt group.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:58 pm 
Slayer
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Medieval Combat will be fine without you.



Sorry, couldn't resist.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:41 pm 
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LOL Slagar...

Anyway...I think that what I was trying to say (and there are in fact people out there who don't take hits from girls), that I didn't want to see this abused. I went to an event recently where I had a lot of trouble from people taking my hits...it wasn't everyone, but it was the big boys. I ended up hitting a different guy three times in the same spot and he started to cry. I felt pretty bad about it, but I didn't have a choice other than to hit more and hit harder. Other people were also having trouble with these guys too, poor Rev had to herald most of the day (Thank you!!!). I think after FB's explanation, I am in complete agreement with him. I really do run into people who tell me that I didn't hurt them, so they don't have to take it, and that has to be wrong (or I need **** weapons). All I was trying to do with my post is point out this could be abused.

I almost never have any problems at Chaos Wars with my calibration (West honor is the best), and I don't think that this is because after 9 years of fighting I still "hit like a girl." Additionally, I would fail the weapons held by those 115 lb girls...weapons should not leave bruises with every hit :)

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:53 pm 
Slayer
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board
They could borrow yours and do the same thing, I've watched 'em pull that trick. It's funny every time.

See, your problem here is that you equate taking lighter shots with having 'better honor'. I want people to actually hit me. It's not that I'm less honorable than some tap-fighter, I just didn't sign up to play tag. Don't confuse the two. There's a reason we have sufficient force rules.

For the most part, though, I think we're on the same page.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:56 pm 
Warning: Knows Math
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Location: near Newark, NJ
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Goldenvale+East Kingdom
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Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:
I felt pretty bad about it



Well, there's yer problem.


But seriously, some people slough; a lot of people take too light. Strike the balance and peace shall reign.


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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 3:39 pm 
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I think we are too. I mostly wanted to point out there is a continuous gradient of hit strengths, something like:

touch, tap, light, clean and light, clean and solid, solid-hard, very hard, temporarily painful, bruises, injury

I'd like to keep Bel in the "clean and solid" and above, excluding injury (and I'll suck up the few bruises I get, so we can keep it rough). I think this would be an optimal range to stay at and it is easy if you are in a realm favoring the ends to adjust to different calibrations there. I think Chaos is pretty much in this range as I see it, with a mean right at very-hard (few real injuries and occasional bruising, without every shot causing them). People still take clean and solid shots on the low end and some of the rougher stuff still happens too. I don't want to see it rougher and I don't want to see it pussed out either.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:44 pm 
Warning: Knows Math
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Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
PS: I just got back from Gates of Fire and I feel like I made some special friends before they figured out my calibration. Then, they became actually friendly to me when they realized that my calibration was very consistent, it just didn't allow me to take 90%-blocked crap or tap-shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:55 pm 
Grizzled Veteran
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
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Location: Kung Foo Island
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip
It sounds like you ran into some old fasion dirty **** cheaters.
These kinds of * are thankfully rare, but every now and again they surface. They * me off just as much. Seriolus and blatant rhino hiding against particular people is something that degrade the spirt of sportsmanship just as much as makeing things too light.
It's all about respect. If you repct your opponents, you don't cheat. When something weird happens when fighting people you respect, you say holy **** that was close/wierd /whatever. When something weird happens when fighting someone your don't resect happens, you say the guy is a cheater. Even if it's only in your head.
Respect is the result of sportsmanship(honor). Sportsmanship must be maintained.
That being said, when you meet these dirty cheaters again, point them out to me. I drive a truck full of pain. We'll teach them about respect.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:15 pm 
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Thank you FB...that is very kind. It's funny how negative experiences like that can really affect your view of an event. On the bright side it really makes me appreciate both the quality and civility of fighters at Chaos Wars.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:34 am 
Grizzled Veteran
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Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 5:46 pm
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Location: Kung Foo Island
Started Fighting: 15 Jun 2000
Realm: Aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip
Thank you.
Although I don't help run Chaos War in any way, I feel my unit has played a part in spirt it of sportsmanship and comrarerie at Chaos over the years.
I'm glad people have noticed the level of respect we all have for each other. We don't all LIKE each other, but we love and respect each other.
That attitude is spreading through the rest of this sport like herpes.
That's what it's all about, baby.
FB

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Don't call it a comeback
I been here for years
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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:39 am 
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Its all about Herpes? Then I've this **** down SOLID for years!

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:23 am 
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I thought this would appropriate to throw in there, but I guess Olaf of Einherjar will be trying to change the official wording of this rule at Rag WC this year.

Thank. God.

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 Post subject: Re: Baggy Garb = Kill?
PostPosted: Sun May 30, 2010 8:32 pm 
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That's great news.

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