Moderator: Belegarth: Forum Moderators
Derian wrote:Well, ****. Par is right.
Book of War wrote:3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to any unarmoredTarget Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have.If the Target Area is armored, the Weapon must be wielded two-handed to cause damage to the Target Area. A one-handed strike causes no injury to an Armored Target Area.
Book of War wrote:3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death.Limbs injured with Class 3 and Class 4 Weapons do not count towards this total.
Book of War wrote:3.4.2.2. Disabled Arm - A disabled Arm may not hold anything. If the Arm is disabledby a Class 1 or 2 Weaponthen place Arm behind back.If the Arm is disabled by a Class 3 or 4 Weapon, leave Arm dangling limply at side.
Book of War wrote:3.4.3.1. All subsequent strikes with Class 3 or 4 Weapon on the same Target Area previously injured only by a Class 3 or 4 Weapon are ignored.
3.4.3.2. All subsequent strikes to a disabled arman Arm disabled by a Class 1 or 2 weaponpass through to the Torso.
3.4.3.3. All subsequent strikes to a disabled Legdisabled by a Class 1 or 2 weaponare ignored.
Thank you so much for spelling this out so simply.Isk wrote:The perfect system
Book of War wrote:3.2.2.3. Class 3 (thrusting) Weapons wielded one-handed cause one hit of damage to anyunarmoredTarget Area. Class 3 Weapons also cause two hits of damage when wielded two-handed against a Target Area, ignoring any Armor the Target Area may have.If the Target Area is armored, the Weapon must be wielded two-handed to cause damage to the Target Area. A one-handed strike causes no injury to an Armored Target Area.
Juicer, last time we had this fun talk, wrote:Arrakis wrote:Juicer, what do you think would make a 10' spear so much better under the new rules? I wipe 8'+ spears with NO armor on all the time. And if spears ARE better under the new rules... isn't that historically appropriate?
Also, how does that overpower archers? If they can still shoot you in the armored torso or unarmored head and kill you from 50 feet by missing you completely and then hollering at you that you're dead, they really can't get much more powerful.
Allow me to take this one at a time.
The 10' spear is merely so I can reach even more people to brutally murder. It would work with an eight footer too. If this passed all I have to do is continually pool-cue stab legs up and down the line until everyone is DEAD. All the shieldmen on my side have to do is block for me and occasionally throw a half-assed shot to open up another leg for me. I can see it now: Bam. I stab a greave five people down. "armor". bam. I stab it again. Legged. He puts his back leg up and I just repeat the procedure or stab the unarmored area that is now open to me. He's dead. All of this is terribly easy and I don't even have to open myself up because they're all single green shots. I'm pretty sure you're familiar with spearwork and know how fast you could do this.
As for historically accurate, I believe it goes something like this: Safety, PLAYABILITY, Realism. In that order. These rules would nerf armor and cheese the hell out of spears. And bows. Speaking of....
Bows. Can't get much more powerful you say? With the current rules, you get shot in the arm, you can still be effective (and you have a one hit shield of sorts). You can also use said arm to block further shots at you. I see that one used all the time by non-shield users, and it works. Again, PLAYABILITY. Why fix what isn't broken? Wasn't your original intent behind this to be able to conceal armor? Well you've ditched that and this rule change now looks a lot like the one WE JUST DISCUSSED. Maybe it wasn't worded to your satisfaction, but the same intent was behind it. Someone could have easily re-worded it. Nobody did. It got shot down then, and I bet if you proposed this one, it'll get shot down now.
Derian wrote:Well, ****. Par is right.
Angmarth wrote: It is VERY hard to get a sufficient force stab. Much more difficult than a sufficient force swing.
Ten fencers have participated in the study. They were from 18 to 20 years old and their antropological parameters were similar. All of them were male foil fencers from the same sport club. All of them were right-handed, with the same qualification, with the similar style of fencing. They successful in the national championship both individually and in teams. We chose this group because this way we could study the details of lunge on a homogeneous sample. This was necessary for letting the different kinetic elements and kinematic parameters be identifiable and comparable. During the study we identified some of the kinematic parameters of lunge. These were the followings: displacement, period of time, average velocity, highest velocity. We studied how these elements depend on the type of combinations of the movements. The studied combinations were the following: simple lunge, step forward-lunge, jump forward-lunge, step backwards-lunge, jump backwards-lunge. We asked the fencers at the execution of foot works to cany out the task as if being in real combat.
The measurement has been made at the Department of Biomechanics, Hungarian University of Physical Education. We used a measurement system developed by SELSPOT AB (Sweden) for these measurements.
Angmarth wrote:It took some time, but I did some searching. I found someone who did a few measurements on fencers. This quote is from the article:Ten fencers have participated in the study. They were from 18 to 20 years old and their antropological parameters were similar. All of them were male foil fencers from the same sport club. All of them were right-handed, with the same qualification, with the similar style of fencing. They successful in the national championship both individually and in teams. We chose this group because this way we could study the details of lunge on a homogeneous sample. This was necessary for letting the different kinetic elements and kinematic parameters be identifiable and comparable. During the study we identified some of the kinematic parameters of lunge. These were the followings: displacement, period of time, average velocity, highest velocity. We studied how these elements depend on the type of combinations of the movements. The studied combinations were the following: simple lunge, step forward-lunge, jump forward-lunge, step backwards-lunge, jump backwards-lunge. We asked the fencers at the execution of foot works to cany out the task as if being in real combat.
The measurement has been made at the Department of Biomechanics, Hungarian University of Physical Education. We used a measurement system developed by SELSPOT AB (Sweden) for these measurements.
There was a chart included where the BEST velocity was 2885 mm/s for a thrust. This converts to .11 mph (please check my math), which is a far cry from the speed of a tennis player swinging a racket in excess of 70+ mph. (According to the U of I physics dept.) Where a stab works in the REAL world is that your surface area that you strike with is infinitely smaller than that of a bludgeoning weapon, which increases your pressure astronomically if your weapon is literally a point. In our universe we are striking with a surface area of something like 8 or so units on a 1h swing and 1 or so units on a 1h stab. Meaning that you have to swing 8 times faster than you stab to get the same pressure (force per unit area). Even if you have a terminal velocity of a foam weapon around 25 mph, you still are in excess of 200 times the amount of pressure exerted by a stab. Even if my math was off by a factor of 10, you would still be 20 times greater... a number much larger than the 8 to 1 ratio I think we probably have. I stand by the fact it is not only EASIER to land a sufficient force strike, it is down right difficult to land a sufficient force stab.
Arrakis wrote:Angmarth, it's just not the case that it's more difficult to stab with sufficient force. You're using basically high school physics to attempt to describe a very complex tissue interaction best described through the use of impact dynamics. Their study (just looked it up) was purely about the speeds of these lunges and never discussed impacts. Additionally, the nature of the kinematics of a swing (more joints in actuation, rotational movement, moment applied far from impact point...) and a stab (straight line motion, force in line with impact...) cause them to act very differently in impact, as anyone who has ever really jacked a guy up with a stabbing tip on a bluesword will tell you.
I stab people hard enough that they make The Noise on a regular basis. It's PLENTY hard, even with a marine foam stabbing tip with some open cell on it for friendliness (like on my 19oz 'bat). Ask Peter or Bo to stab you some time. You'll see what i mean.
It's certainly harder to land a one-handed stab on a fighter, in that you can't just throw it anywhere you please and, if nothing stops it, it should be solid, the way a strike works, but that doesn't make achieving sufficient force with a stab any more difficult.
PS: This thread is not about splitting armor into a two-tiered system of Metal vs. Other.
Angmarth wrote:If you place a "force meter" on the pole you will find that even when you strike you might not hit hard enough.
Froste wrote:I can't reply in the pertinent thread unfortunately. Perhaps one of you who can will pass this along, but on Sunday since I was the only person in armor I took it upon myself to loudly announce that I would take single stabs as one armor hit if it happened.
It happened a couple of times. My heart was not broken. I did not want to shed my armor and cry because it's no longer useful. It was a slight inconvenience, no more, and it encouraged people to stab me which made the fighting a little more unpredictable and therefore interesting.
I liked it.
Isk wrote:You don't allow reusable missiles, do you do this because allowing stabs to count toward DbD had overpowered them?
3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death. Limbs injured with Class 4 Weapons do not count towards this total.
There are no staffs in Belegarth. Because of how they are constructed, they are really Pugil Sticks.
Zwei ap Owen wrote:Juicer sho' nuff loves tuh shuffle.
Thorondor partially answered these, but since we are trying to get down to "how does this actually work out on the field" instead of hypothesizing ourselves to death, It'd be nice to hear your responses.Isk wrote:Back on topic, so Angmarth you did notice that the single-hand spear shots were more effective at getting chest shots on armored opponents, but it didn't make that much difference with legs, right? Are spears more powerful on your field than at the events you attend which are played by the BoW? You don't allow reusable missiles, do you do this because allowing stabs to count toward DbD overpowers them?
Shinbro wrote:For Armor rules remaining unchanged-
The historical accuracy, ease of playability, and rule-simplifying arguments for 1green hit = 1 blue hit is completely invalid. We are not the SCA. Nor do we fence. We construct nerf weapons under guidelines that are loose in their specificity at best.
If the historical accuracy argument is valid then the same statement can be made against the use of tube weapons as no 12oz stick ever lopped off an arm or leg. Really, if historical accuracy is the biggest proponent for blue damage stabbing then we need to completely reevaluate our weight minimums and armor classifications as neither require one to meet historical standards.
Yes, we want to simulate medieval combat but we also want a fun and playable game that requires real skill to excel at. (that's how we get our rocks off with Bel) We are a different game than Amptguard and if you enjoy how the combat in that game plays then by all means, go play it. Our differences are what keep our two games interesting and promotes new ideas and techniques. If every boffer game played the same we would never learn anything new form one another. With so many cross-gamers out there it would be a bad decision to do away with our subtle differences. Dumbing down our rules will ultimately lead to the dumbing down of fighting styles and because of that we can't give an inch of complexity form our already simple rule book.
Some sports rules are in place to impede the player. What would basket ball be if you didn't have to worry about the double dribble? What about no 'Off Sides' rules? These games would become too easily broken.
This current armor rule may hinder some but it essentially makes armor and thus the opponent wearing it is an obstacle worth putting forth extra effort against.
Just do what you do best and chop away.
- Shino
Arrakis wrote:PS: Those of you who don't really know me: I'm not (as much of) a * in person.
Book of War wrote:3.4.1.5. Two disabled limb Target Areas (Arms and/or Legs) cause Death. Limbs injured with Class 3 and Class 4 Weapons do not count towards this total.
3.4.1.6. Two disabled arms cause death. This is an exception to rule 3.4.1.5.
Black Cat wrote:I've been thinking about this subject lately, and I came up with an interesting thought.
Is the goofiness of running around on the field unable to attack the only reason why some of us want rid of green damage not counting toward the limb total?
Return to Rules Discussion And Development
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests