Historically Balanced Zweihänder~

[Sieglatan]

Hail all-

This has been a long time coming, so I thought I'd just post pics and type as I go-
The core is 1" bandshoppe pole that was originally 6 feet long- I ended up cutting it down by five inches to make room for the stab tip and pommel, as well as better suit my height (I don't want a sword that's taller than myself, and I'm only 5'11"). Here's an idea of how big the thing is, with the first blade layer, compared to an average, run-of-the-mill bokuto



I couldn't use my original method for attaching rigid cross guards, since I was working with hollow material (I usually work with solid fiberglass), so I asked Forkbeard for some advice (Thanks again!), and I made this as a result. The leather is 16-18oz for each layer, formed, steel riveted, and hardened.



Here's the two put together without making it permanent- I'm probably going to pull the guard towards the pommel by a few inches to better fit the historic model I'm going for. Once the cross-guard is fully dry, I'm going to slather the core with adhesives, draw the guard into place, lace the leather ties as tightly as possible, and let it set overnight!



The six to eight inches below the cross guard are being reserved for the ricasso, protected by a blade-safe set of parierhaken. Ultimately, I'm going to build the entire thing except the pommel, then add lead weights to it until the thing is balanced the way I want. I'm experimenting a bit on this one, and it's a slightly different direction than the 12.001 oz speed bat that most fighters seem to prize, but I'm already liking it~!

This is close to my proportional goal, minus the blistering steel, and a wee bit shorter. As tempting as it is, I'm going to abstain from making the blade flamberge-style- cutting power doesn't mean too much in a hit based sport.

[Gamera]

Looking good so far. The cross guard looks like it's going to be nigh-invincible which is always a plus.

[SolidSam]

Wow.

That looks amazing.

I literally just bought two bike tires from walmart to begin making crossguards with them, so your post makes me sad. I'm working on the foam for my red right now. I even have links up on my computer.

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=16740.0

http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=4800.0

http://s75.photobucket.com/albums/i293/ ... c05763.jpg

I spent like two months lurking to find that info out too...

SolidSam fails...

How much would you or Forkbeard charge for one of those?

[Sieglatan]

Thanks! I was hoping to have it done by TBA, but I'm already crunching to get studying, cleaning, packing, and these sashes done, and I'm taking another person down to SD, so there won't really be any room for a six foot sword.

Here's what I was able to complete~



Blade is completely done- the green layer is a layer of closed cell stab foam that allows a large weapon to be passed at even the pussiest realms. I'll probably replace the stab tip, which is currently core-biscuit-yoga-poof brick-yoga, with core-biscuit-yoga-yoga-yoga-poof tip, which has worked better for me in the past. The counterweights are made from carriage bolts which place the center of gravity right at the parierhaken, so I might add more weight when I return in a week...

As much as FB loves doing commissions, I absolutely loathe doing them- I have never had a commission work out well on my end. If I ever do sell stuff, then I plan on making and prettying it up before-hand and selling as is. As such, I'm not sure how much I would charge for a weapon like this.

[Todo]

Dear Sieglatan,

Please stop making the rest of us look bad with all of your amazing ****.

Sincerely,
Todo

[Gamera]

Saddened I won't see it tomorrow. I guess I'll have to settle for rumors of its reign of terror as opposed to first hand experienced.

I'm amazed how thin the blade is compared to the width of the core, but then again I tend to overbuild. I agree with your assessment for the stab tip, a gradual progression is less likely to get weird on you than a sandwich of varying densities.

[Isk]

Sieg, I really like how you and Fork decided to approach the crossguard. Keep us posted on how it holds up under use.

[Arrakis]

Your stab tip designs sound either failing or unsafe, depending. You do NOT want less than two layers of 2# density foam over the tip before you start adding yoga or your **** will work great for a while and then fail in a brutal and ruinous fashion one day down the line.

Also, what's the blade padding like? I had a **** of a time padding my 6' miniglaive on bandpole to passing on account of the incredible lack of flex.

[kree]

I agree, that looks like it will hurt, and not in the good way.

[bo1]

not to derail, but is teh cross gaurd getting any foam, i didnt read it all. but it needs to not pass through the pommel template. not an actual rule, but it is a convention around here.

[Sieglatan]

* Arrakis and Kree- Yeah, I'll admit I was a bit rushed during the blade's construction, was experimenting with different blade designs, and wanted to get rid of a hunk of a nerf football I didn't want, but didn't want to waste, so I'm definitely going to re-blade the entire thing when I return. I talked with Orion about blade construction at TBA III last Saturday, and he suggested a few key ideas.
I'm probably going to strip the blue/green, bite the bullet, and blade it with Kegg foam, with the reinforced stab tip design described earlier. Now this sword will be the result of the collaboration of two masters~!

* Yes, the cross-guard will have a layer of padding over its entirety and two layers over any surface that could potentially hit someone when swung. That's why it looks so skinny- so that it won't be this thick sausage like monster when its completed.

Thanks for the feedback, all! I can't wait to continue it soon!

[bo1]

cool, it will be really good then. just didnt want an oversight holding you up. also if you wait for the reblade until chaos, i will bring some 4lbs routed for band pole. should last forever with 2 layers of kegg foam and a layer of blue to soften the blow. put a layer of yoga mat under and over the blue for the stab.

looking great.

[Arrakis]

cool, it will be really good then. just didnt want an oversight holding you up. also if you wait for the reblade until chaos, i will bring some 4lbs routed for band pole. should last forever with 2 layers of kegg foam and a layer of blue to soften the blow. put a layer of yoga mat under and over the blue for the stab.

looking great.

*dies*

That sounds awesome.

[kree]

When i make reds i use a double box technique,it hits nice and when built well it last for a long time, ive never put a stabby on a red, but i used three layers of yoga mat on my glaive and it stabs very nicely. This is from my experience, im sure there is another method that is better though.

[LoganSteele]

I made a 6 foot red in the same style a while ago you might enjoy checking out. I didnt bring it to TBA as it is a loaner for the realm and i only brought my personals. If you make it to Battle at Beumont saturday ill show it to ya or maybe some future event. I didnt get all fancy with leather on it but many people like how it came out. I used blue, some open cell and for stab tip marine foam. There may be pictures of it stashed somewhere buried in the forums.

[Sleeper]

its a thing of beauty... but these kids are right, you need a bit more foam on a bandshoppe pole, they'll break your hands. And if you use it to destroy shields dont expect it to last long, I went through two bandshoppe redswords that were about the same size in less than a year, shattered both of them. They were, however, the best and fastest redswords I've ever built.

[Sieglatan]

Thread Necro, I know~

I've been busy, what with life getting in the way, and all, but I've been working on this guy off and on, and should have it ready and softened for even the pussiest weapon checkers by Chaos~!



Blade is the two-hander blade kit from Edhellen (thanks guys!)- I've decided to fight against my traditional inclination to shave the corners of the blade, and leave it more box-like. I am (so-far) very satisfied with the parierhaken and ricasso; the former is solid and passes 2" circle check, and the latter is oblong, and fits nicely with my grip. I personally dislike ricassos that are just bare handles, and have had my fingers crunched by some over-swings, so I've generously padded it with scrap Kegg foam. The thickness of it looks like it's part of the core of the blade (like a real Zweihander), and to that effect, as a final step, I may loosely tie soft soft leather around it to complete the look, and make it contingent with the grip.

I put two layers on the contact edges of the cross guard, but I may shave parts of it down to allow it to pass, but not be so bulky. I plan on giving it a stylized pommel to cover the lead and carriage bolt counterweights, and I'm debating on what I want the grip to look like. I'm choosing between a no-frills functional one that merges with the pommel like this-



Or a fancy one like this museum number (from the Zweihander wiki article)-



Both of which I can replicate with leather.

Speaking of which, and little off topic, anyone have any tips for quickly breaking in a new pair of stiff leather combat boots? I usually break them in through running/combat, but I'd like to avoid the bleeding feet this time around.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

[Teej]

Speaking of which, and little off topic, anyone have any tips for quickly breaking in a new pair of stiff leather combat boots? I usually break them in through running/combat, but I'd like to avoid the bleeding feet this time around.

Breaking in... just wear them around the house - it's what I did for mine at least. Or you can start with good boots off the bat. Bates have always been my favorite.

Love the project. Can't wait to see more.

[Kraesh]

Speaking of which, and little off topic, anyone have any tips for quickly breaking in a new pair of stiff leather combat boots? I usually break them in through running/combat, but I'd like to avoid the bleeding feet this time around.

Just do it the same way as leather armor. Soak your feet and then go run a mile, then wear them dry.

-Kraesh

[Taxfrog]

An old marine friend told me this one: put on a good pair of thick socks, rub em with just regular bar soap till you can see some build up, make sure you get all the spots where your foot rubs on the boot. Toes, ball, ankle so on so on. When you start getting active your foot sweat will lubricate with the soap and you wont get blisters, it will also soften up the inside of the boot a little bit. I did this with a new pair of red wings and it worked great. These were new boots I wore 10+ hours a day in a kitchen on my feet and didn't have any problems.
For the outside of your boots, pay attention to where the bending puts pressure against your foot, and rub it down with alcohol, saturate it pretty much, and that supposedly will soften it up. I don't know this one from PERSONAL experience, but if I had some exotic leather I wouldn't use it.

Hope this helps,

Tax

BTW awesome sword

[Sieglatan]

Awesome advice about boots

Thanks for the advice, gentlemen!
I honestly have not had problems like this with my earlier boots, which have ranged in quality from lasting three years to the last pair I had which lasted three months. The issue with these new ones (Rothco brand) is that the leather is so thick and stiff that the laces will not come together, forcing my heel to wiggle around, and chafing my shins as I walk (i just got back from a night hike). Tomorrow, I have a long hike, so I'll soak them, wear thick wool socks, and let them dry on me.

Thanks again, and thanks for the feedback on the sword!

[Forkbeard]

Take them back and but some nicer boots. I prefer the tactical combat boots cops wear.
Thet have all the support of normal combat boots and soles like athletic shoes.

Why the **** is your sword tip cut off flat with a flat piece of foam glued over it? You ruined that blade. It will fall off at the joint when you fight.
What kind of * idea is that?
FB

[Sieglatan]

Take them back and but some nicer boots. I prefer the tactical combat boots cops wear.
Thet have all the support of normal combat boots and soles like athletic shoes.

Why the **** is your sword tip cut off flat with a flat piece of foam glued over it? You ruined that blade. It will fall off at the joint when you fight.
What kind of * idea is that?
FB

I'll look into the cop-boot idea. The best boots I've ever had were US army combat boots being sold after they were phasing out the all-leather boots for the desert models with the canvas sides. Those lasted for three years of SCA and Belegarth combat (and field work) before the sole finally and contemptuously split in two.

Anyways- As much as I am ingratiated towards Edhellen for their kits, I have a sore spot for their tips- I've seen too many cores jut out of that spot over the years. I DAP a layer of Kegg (again, scrap from the kit) over the core, before adding marine foam so core isn't felt through the suppleness of the stabbing edge. Then I DAP a strip of soft, unyielding leather ( a strip of heavy linen works as well) over the entire tip, and over about a foot of the blade on each side. Then I finish up with cloth tape, and a snazzy cover.

In order for the tip to snap off, the strike would have to be strong enough to snap leather through deceleration alone, which simply hasn't happened in the other stab tips I've done in the same manner. And even if I've completely * the blade (awww yeah!), I have a spare blade kit.

By the way, I love the very congenial advice on footwear, followed by the vitriolic yellow bile spewed all over. It's like being cudgeled by a man wearing a monocle and top hat.

[Forkbeard]

Your reinventing the wheel.
and your tip can just come unglued while the leather stays in place.
also. You mention needing to soften it up for weapon checkers. Perhaps it,s that your rediculous tip desing hits too hard.
just because you saw an edhelleb sword fail does not mean the tech is flawed. All foam swords fail. Your design is overcolpicated and weak.
continuous foam over the tip is a highly superior design.
fb

[Sieglatan]

I mentioned softening the blade because it felt stiff when a fighter tested some heavy hits on my back before there was any sort of stabbing tip on it, and I felt that it was a bit stiff, but passable. As such, I don't think my reinvented wheel had anything to do with that-

It wasn't just one Edhellen sword I've seen do this (several in both Salamandastron and Andor), and that's not a decry against Edhellen, because that seems to be the only thing that fails on them after months of heavy combat. Seriously- their stuff kicks all sorts of *~

I also had to change the design over the realities of the foam material and core- mainly that the re-blade kit appeared to be made for a 3/4" fiberglass core and I was working with a 1" bandshoppe pole with a little rubber end cap. Even if I managed to carve the foam, or force the blade around the core, and then bend the tip of the foam over the tip of the core, then the triangular cut pieces wouldn't be able to match up, there would be a huge weak spot for cores to jut through, cats and dogs living together, etc. As such, and because everything was purchased with my meager funds, and no lives were at stake, I used my best judgment went with the style that hasn't failed me yet in the dozen or so heavy weapons I've done in this manner.

Then again, I've only been doing this for a few years, and am always eager to improve upon designs and learn more~ If this weapon stands out at Chaos, gets pulled aside for extra special testing, and then failed 'just to be safe,' then no big deal. I still have the other unmolested reblade kit, and a host of awesome Belegrim more experienced than I who have offered to help me blade it again at the event (with compensation, of course).

[Tiberius Claudius]

Sieg, awesome work.

Isk and I built reds on 5' band pole and we love them. I'm seriously considering adding your cross guard to mine since it will open up my game and be more realistic.

At any rate, if you're hitting too hard, I would suggest the following progressive foam density:

• box layer against the core: Gray interlocking floor mat. I bought mine at KMart.
• layer of blue camp pad
• layer of Gold's Gym yoga mat
• layer of blue camp pad
• on top of that, just two-three layers of yoga mat for stab tip

I also used Arrakis' tip of armor grade leather between the top of the band pole core, under my gray floor mat biscuit (remove the rubber cap!) to prevent coring through the foam. You can read more about his concept of "Solid Base Diameter" here.

Your sword will hit solidly because of the mass of the weapon and your body mechanics, but that dense gray floor mat and the yoga mat betwixt the blue camp pad will negate any pain from core or lack of foam give.

I agree with FB that your stab tip will fail.

Keep up the good work.

[Sieglatan]

Thank you, good sir!

And thank you for the source on the grey gym mats! I may just try your blade idea out with some spare 3/4" fiberglass I have laying about just to try it out~

If my stab tip fails by snapping off or whatever, then I will buy Fork a beer at Chaos, and wear a belt flag the entire time that states that I suck~!

As for cross guards, I actually find them rather useful- especially against fencers and kendo guys who aim for the wrist. I try to make it habit to yell out "cross guard" if they hit there.

[Forkbeard]

You don't leave the rubber cap on the end of the pole. Jesus.
You tape a quarter on the end with a little strapping tape. Then you router the channel lager to accomadate the 1" core.
By reiventing the wheel, I mean that you are making things much too complicated by trying to re-enjineer them from the ground up, making up your own overly difficult way to do things that is not better than the standard and in fact has all new flaws.
I have 2 edhellen red swords that have lasted for the past 2 years. Both with stab tips.
FB

[Sieglatan]

heh- I didn't leave the cap on- I took it off, slathered the inside with DAP, and hammer-tapped it back on. Seemed like a better preventative measure against the core spearing through stuff than a metal coin.
Bad Stieg, I know - Next one, I'll quarter tape it.

I prefer to think of it like evolution and cancer, but I see your point. Again- a beer. and a derogatory belt flag. At least I've gone from '* idea' to 'too complicated.'

I'll say it again, Edhellen kicks * for the most part. The weapons I've seen circumsice themselves (around five in total, three of which I had to rebuild) have been non-stabby blue swords.

PS- I'm working on weapons and my new articulated fighting helm tonight, so hopefully I'll be able to post more pics in progress~!

[Cheeseheart]

I there any hope for a glaive whose quarter has come loose?

[Forkbeard]

Darth, you could hope to rebuild it.
Why the **** has the quarter come loose? did you tape it on with strapping tape? Or masking tape?
FB

[LoganSteele]

What is are the disadvantages of using the rubber cap over a quarter?

[Cheeseheart]

The quarter came off because I forgot to tape it on.....
My bad.
I'm usually more careful about things like that. **** my life, I love that glaive...obviously not enough though.

[Isk]

Sieg, keep reporting back on how that crossguard holds up. They are awesomely useful if we can make a safe one that stands up to use.

[Forkbeard]

The rubber cap is **** huge in diameter. Why in the name of god would anyone want a big lump on the end of a core. Either your blade needs to be bigger where the thing is, or you foam needs to be thinner(which is **** retarded, especialy at the tip of a weapon).
With a quarter and some tape, your core is not effectivly larger than the rest of the core.
It is totaly amazing to me that this is even a question.
FB

[LoganSteele]

Thank you forkbeard for the answer. That is the only disadvantage i had thought of a while ago but i was wondering if there were more.

I had kept it on when i built our realms two hander and yes it was wider and yes it did add a slightly larger amount of work in making the strips wider at that point. I thought perhaps with a end piece like that it would be even more safe then a quarter so i went with it. In compensating for this it wound up having a 2" wide blade and while it did add some weight to the weapon it hit awesome. Everyone who used it liked it and was surprised by it. People would wince as it was swung at them and then were surprised at how "gentle" it hit (the open cell layer on the outside helped alot im sure). Darth Cheesheart swung it around once and was impressed with it i think. Most people thought it was a bit heavy but for those it was intended to used by (people over 6") they loved it.

Now it is soon time for me to slice off the foam and rebuild this weapon and so i am planning on replacing it with a coin.

Regarding crosspieces, on this zwei i had made i used 5 layers of blue, bored a hole throught he middle and skinned the whole thing with fiberglass strapping tape. I even taped inside the bored hole. So far they have not torn after much use and abuse. I cant see the images of the above mentioned weapon on the computer i am on right now but it sounds like it looks very nice. My style is just two black rectanges that look ok but nothing amazing. They have come in handy however.

[Tiberius Claudius]

Regarding crosspieces, on this zwei i had made i used 5 layers of blue, bored a hole throught he middle and skinned the whole thing with fiberglass strapping tape. I even taped inside the bored hole. So far they have not torn after much use and abuse.

You bored a hole through the 5 layers of foam for your core to fit through, right? Not a hole in your core for the foam to go through?

How long has this lasted? What kind of direct, nasty hits is it taking?

[LoganSteele]

Yes bored a hole through the crosspiece. I would have to look up the construction date when i got home but i am guessing more than 6 months so far. Ill answer more accuratly later tonight. The crosspieces i have seen hold up against a few decent forcful hits against it including a bit of abuse from grappling. I read about the 5 layers of foam trick somewhere as well as of course the experts mentioning the strapping tape the only thing i thought of on my own was to add some tape inside the bore to keep it from tearing up.

I was able to look at the pictures above finally and i have to say that leather with foam over it trick looks pretty tuff. I would not be surprised to see it outlast the method i used for sure.

Here is what they look like. http://s202.photobucket.com/albums/aa18 ... g&newest=1

[Sieglatan]

I've made two other leather cross-guards, but in different fashions, and on a different type of core, but so far, both have sustained massive hits (including a weapon being broken on one) without breaking or bending. So far, I'm pleased with results.

Progess with the zwei is a tad slow since I'm doing a lot of work and preparing my realm for the Summer and the next year without me. I plan on attaching a blood groove pane to help keep the two halves together and to allow for a larger cross section for the stab tip. To compensate, I may add a few more ounces of lead to the pommel (I'm going to try to keep the center of gravity at the ricasso), but we'll see.

For small cross guards, the boxing method LoganSteele describes is pretty good, I find. Here's a variation I finished recently for a katzbalger-



The rounded box blue camp pad guard fits really well, as does the pommel- though it does look like a * pommel from this angle... ah well.

[LoganSteele]

Sounds pretty awesome. Hope fully i get a chance to check them out someday. It is so cool how many different build styles are possible out there. I really enjoy seeing the ideas others come up with.

[Ragefire]

Was this sword ever finished? It looked badass!!!

[Sieglatan]

Yep! I finished it in time for Chaos XV, where is passed for red, but tacoed too much to pass for green. After I returned to SD, I realized that I actually put too much marine foam on the tip, so I took it down, and it passed with flying colors.

I haven't used it too much for several reasons- For one, it need a LOT of strength and control to use safely- With there being almost no flex, a out-of-control head shot could really prove nasty. As such, I'm still practicing up for it, so I can be safer and more courteous than I was before. Another reason is that if I bring it to a practice or an event, I can really only use it- if I pick up anything else, I get a horde of * asking to use it (puppy dog eyes from a 35 y/o man = sad), or just using it anyways. It's also a * and a half to carry it places, since my car isn't too big.

I'll probably start using it at practice again in a week or so- Here's a pic of me using it-- my apologies for the **** garb- my garb shirt ripped earlier that day.

[LoganSteele]

"I can really only use it- if I pick up anything else, I get a horde of * asking to use it (puppy dog eyes from a 35 y/o man = sad), or just using it anyways"

I run into this problem with my equiptment as well. I am usually able to resist the nice guy urge to let them use it. On the more puppy dog faced ones i tell them they can use it against me but im not comfortable with them swinging it at others unless i see they are skilled enough for it to be safe.

I do remember that zwei of yours though as a thing of beuty! Ill be repairing out Desert wind zwei in the next couple weeks along with my 69" red. Hope fully they pass at BFTR4. I have trouble passing my reds with those folks sometimes when they do thier heavy hit test.

[Ragefire]

That looks amazing. I love a realistic looking weapon like that.

[Phlebas]

"or one, it need a LOT of strength and control to use safely- With there being almost no flex, a out-of-control head shot could really prove nasty. As such, I'm still practicing up for it, so I can be safer and more courteous than I was before. Another reason is that if I bring it to a practice or an event, I can really only use it- if I pick up anything else, I get a horde of * asking to use it "

I made a similar one and had the same problems. There's just something about it that makes otherwise sensible people just get drunk with power and want to start taking heads.

"Can I borrow the two-hander?"
"No! You need more training first, you'll hurt someone. Again. Like you did last time."
"No I won't. I'll keep it under control, promise!"
"No."

[Forkbeard]

Weapons must be safe enough for ANYONE to use safely. I am not saying you are required to let other people use it, you do not. But it must be safe IF they did get ahold of it.
If there is a "special" way a weapon must be wiedled, and without using it in that "special" way, it is unsafe, THEN THE **** WEAPON FAILS AND IS UNSAFE.
There has never been a weapon legally on the field that "only can be used safely by ma, cuz I'm extra skilly".
FB

[No'Vak]

Pretty sure he means it doesn't flex and its heavy. If it passed check I believe you're way off base here.

[Forkbeard]

I'm posting that so every new guy who read this KNOWS that thaty can't rely on saying" oh, I know it's not safe for ANYONE to use, but I won't loan it out, so it's ok" It is NOT ok.
People try that **** all the time and it * me off. You can not prevent people from picking up a weapon during a battle when you left it across the field when you lost an arm(red weapons especially).
If the weapon is safe and he's just trying to sound tough, he should stop.
If he's talked some stupid weapon checker into passing this(in the condition I'm thinking it's in) the checker needs to grow a pair and realize the some one like me will take the extra heavy POS and dislocate someones arm with it by accident.

[Phlebas]

nah, what's i'm saying is there's something about it that makes people turn off their aiming filter and swing it blindly at head level. Hitting people in the head with reds, even well-constructed, safe reds, makes for a bad day.

It goes something like: it's strongly appealing to new fighters who don't have experience with any reds, they go try it one on one with their friends, they swing a huge swing from out of range, the friend tries to rush in range, leading with their head, new fighter sees them coming in, panics, swings it back and hits them in the face.

People generally won't pick up a glaive, hold it with both hands at the very end, and start swinging it back and forth like a baseball bat. and if they did, I expect you'd tell them to stop acting like an idiot. But they will with one of these, even people who'd usually know better, because it just looks like a sword, even though it's more like a short polearm.

[Forkbeard]

So your just saying new people shouldn't use red weapons? Sure, alot of people feel that way.
But implying that experienced fighters instantly turn into head hunting, out of control freaks when using your magical sword is stupid.
You're trying to make people thing your sword is special and dangerous. Do not be surprized, then it weapon checkers look at it extra hard and really try to fail it.
fb