It is currently Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:11 am


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:52 pm 
Recruit
Recruit

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:18 pm
Posts: 1
Started Fighting: 05 Feb 2013
Realm: Dur Demarion
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and board
I've searched the forums, read the rules and I have searched the web, but I have had no luck finding an answer to my question.

Can a shield have stripes of fabric hanging from the bottom?

The reason I ask this is because I have a small 12" buckler that I want to decorate. I am a Mexican, so I'd like to pay tribute to my Aztec ancestors in some of my gear. I'd like to do a representation of the feathers that hang from the bottom of their shields.

My plan was to use fabric stripes(cut to look like feathers) in place of feathers. I'd shorten the length by perhaps half. I also thought of using Velcro. Sewing the soft part on the shield cover and the more abrasive side on the feather stripes. This way they can be removable if passing is an issue. That would give them an easy break away point if they get stepped on or caught in anyway (not likely with the length I'm considering). Makes for easy replacement too if they get damaged.

An answer to my question, helpful thoughts or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Image


I just realized I can't reply, but let me clarify my thoughts.
Id only have feather stripes 3 or 4 inches off the bottom of the shield. About where the white part is in the picture, maybe shorter. Thins stripes like what was suggested earlier. I'd reduce the number to like 5 stripes, so there will be gaps. I don't think thin , short and gapped will be an issue with arrows, but I'd be willing to field test that for reassurance.

The picture below I can certainly see issues with arrows, swings and the general illusion of a larger shield with it being a solid piece. My idea wouldn't be able to visually fool people like that. I don't hope to have any advantage since I only want it for cosmetic appearance.

Thank you everyone for your input.


Last edited by Sotoz on Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:50 am 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 671
Location: Alton, IL
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1999
Realm: Riverbend
Unit: Henneth-Annun
To my knowledge, nothing like this has been tried before. There really will be no way to tell what the "answer" is until they are implemented, and inspected. Here's a list of my concerns (think of these as the hurdles that would have to be surpassed to be legal in this weapon-checker's mind):

-can the feathers "whip" up when hit with a weapon, and hit someone in the eye?
-do they obstruct weapons from hitting you, or slow them down significantly, especially arrows?
-are they an entanglement concern (limbs/fingers getting caught in them)?
-if you do velcro, would the "hook" side of the velcro be a hazard to others, or even you (where is it placed)?

This is not an exhaustive list. I do commend you for your creativity. Sounds very interesting. In essence, if they are safe and don't give you an advantage, it should be ok.


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:19 pm 
Ninja
Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 8:58 pm
Posts: 1793
Location: Nan Belegorn
Started Fighting: 12 Mar 2003
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Blood Vally Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Whatever kills the other person
I would think that something like you described would be fine. Thinner fabric may be better so it doesn't slow down shots or arrows to badly. I imagine that for swings it would be similar to a garb layer. I would say that calls from archers who shoot though it might not go in your favor often, but that isn't that big of a deal. basically keep the points Brutus had in mind and try to make sure they aren't going to whip people in the face or tie someone up.

_________________
Mekoot Gorlock,
Horde

Kyrian wrote:
Thanks to the rain gods (that includes you, Gorlock)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:29 pm 
Slayer
Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:31 pm
Posts: 1021
Rotten in California just made a shield with a similar design.

I've seen pictures of it and seen it in use.

While I personally feel that it's really close to touching upon 1.4. - I can see no legal reason to prohibit it.

In practical use, he has been informed that it's entangling, but I feel that the Marshal who made that call has a rather different definition of "entangling" than most others in the sport.

http://i.imgur.com/9RsYjLx.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/pOEZ1Ii.jpg

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:01 pm 
Ninja
Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 8:58 pm
Posts: 1793
Location: Nan Belegorn
Started Fighting: 12 Mar 2003
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Blood Vally Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Whatever kills the other person
Yeah, that doesn't look entangling, but I can see people being upset that it confuses them.

_________________
Mekoot Gorlock,
Horde

Kyrian wrote:
Thanks to the rain gods (that includes you, Gorlock)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 4:57 pm 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:57 am
Posts: 1957
Started Fighting: 23 Aug 1999
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Knights of Numenor
The Aztec one would be cool to see, but i agree with Brutus' reservations. The pictured one I would disallow. The purpose behind it seems to be to block shots without it actually being a larger shield. We don't generally allow people to block shots while wearing a cloak, which is a historic fighting style. I see this as something similar. Maybe the guy in the picture should give his cover to the guy on the left with no cover, and make a new one that fits his shield. I agree with Gorlock about the arrow calls.

_________________
Knight of Numenor


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:02 pm 
Slayer
Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:31 pm
Posts: 1021
Cyric wrote:
The Aztec one would be cool to see, but i agree with Brutus' reservations. The pictured one I would disallow. The purpose behind it seems to be to block shots without it actually being a larger shield. We don't generally allow people to block shots while wearing a cloak, which is a historic fighting style. I see this as something similar. Maybe the guy in the picture should give his cover to the guy on the left with no cover, and make a new one that fits his shield. I agree with Gorlock about the arrow calls.


I can understand that interpretation, but I think the fact that we allow loose, flowing/baggy garb to deflect/absorb shots without complaint precludes the complaint about both cloak and the pictured shield cover.

From a safety perspective, I see nothing inherently unsafe about it.

From a playability perspective, I see no difference between it and being able to call garb when a weapon hits your clothes/robes/etc.

From a historical perspective, ... well, this thread is about this from a historical source and I would consider it to be roughly the same as the silk parachutes that samurai wore to protect themselves from arrows.

Edited to add: That said, like I mentioned before, I recognize that it skirts dangerously close to invoking 1.4

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:06 pm 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:57 am
Posts: 1957
Started Fighting: 23 Aug 1999
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Knights of Numenor
I wouldn't say it happens without complaint. Years ago when hakama were first gaining popularity we had to have a lot of discussions about people cheesing leg shots. tshirt braids can do the same thing, but loose pants close to the leg is different from having a piece of fabric out a foot (or more, i can't tell if it's a punch or not) in front of you. When his sheild is up, that would be really easy for the fabric to slow most leg shots coming in without him having to do anything. Why not just hang a layer of blue foam from the bottom of his shield and let it stop arrows too?

_________________
Knight of Numenor


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:37 pm 
Slayer
Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:31 pm
Posts: 1021
Cyric wrote:
I wouldn't say it happens without complaint. Years ago when hakama were first gaining popularity we had to have a lot of discussions about people cheesing leg shots. tshirt braids can do the same thing, but loose pants close to the leg is different from having a piece of fabric out a foot (or more, i can't tell if it's a punch or not) in front of you. When his sheild is up, that would be really easy for the fabric to slow most leg shots coming in without him having to do anything. Why not just hang a layer of blue foam from the bottom of his shield and let it stop arrows too?


Hmmm. I'd have to think about that for a minute.

My initial response would be that a layer of blue foam isn't "rigid" enough to be considered part of the shield.

But, I think that opens up a slightly different avenue both for and against this.

Let me ponder it and get back to you.

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:46 pm 
Veteran
Veteran
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2003 10:57 am
Posts: 1957
Started Fighting: 23 Aug 1999
Realm: Numenor
Unit: Knights of Numenor
On the other hand, currently in the rules there is nothing that defines what a shield is or anything about the taco rule or rigidity of any kind, so if we ignore precedence then you can pretty much call anything a shield.

_________________
Knight of Numenor


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:02 pm 
Slayer
Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:31 pm
Posts: 1021
Cyric wrote:
On the other hand, currently in the rules there is nothing that defines what a shield is or anything about the taco rule or rigidity of any kind, so if we ignore precedence then you can pretty much call anything a shield.


It's kind of a stretch, because it comes from several sections (shields/armor) but I think the definition would still apply.

Quote:
2.2.1. Shields and Bucklers are rigid objects that are padded on the front and sides, and are equipped with handles or straps. A Shield may not be constructed in a manner that would confer the advantage of unbreakable armor.

3.1.3. Rigid Metal - Armor constructed of discrete or continuous metal plate.

3.6.2.1. Must not be easily deformable by hand or by weapon strikes.


So, while the rule technically comes from the armor section, I feel it sets a reasonable standard for what we consider to be "rigid".

I may be incorrect in that assumption, but I can't see someone making a logical argument that something "easily deformable by hand" could in any way be considered "rigid".

I think, if anything, the lack of specificity in definition of "rigid" for shields (and this conversation that we're having now) is further evidence for a rules re-write as is currently up for vote in the War Council and I would urge every realm to push for this to happen.

_________________
Oderint Dum Metuant


Top
 OfflineProfile  
 Post subject: Re: Shield decor legality question
PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:21 am 
Ninja
Ninja
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 8:58 pm
Posts: 1793
Location: Nan Belegorn
Started Fighting: 12 Mar 2003
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Blood Vally Horde
Favorite Fighting Styles: Whatever kills the other person
I talked with rotten and it sounds like he intends to cut the hanging section into strips to make sure people are aware it is not all shield.

_________________
Mekoot Gorlock,
Horde

Kyrian wrote:
Thanks to the rain gods (that includes you, Gorlock)


Top
 OfflineProfile  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
GuildWarsAlliance Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net. Modified by