Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Ilariia Bulochnika » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:10 pm

Arrakis wrote:I actually, for the first time since my banning, really wanted to get into a conversation on the Dag boards just yesterday; it was about garb. I sort of wish we could lure some of the garb snobs to our boards for some discussions...


You do. A number of the garb snobs from that board at least read here and a few of us post. However, in my personal experience (and I started in Bel long before ever going to a Dag event), Bel fighters generally don't give enough of a crap about garb for more than the basics, it's more about armor & weapons. Which is fine, it's just not conducive to having the long garb posts & discussions that take place over there.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Winfang » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:16 pm

Here is a picture of the brass fluted plate he sells. They also come in stainless steel too. This is cool because it can be used in SCA and Dag/Bel. You have to email him though to get pricing and such. Any self-respecting viking should have lamellar, especially well-traveled one.
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Re: Kicked off the Pizza Board

Postby p_quick » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:20 pm

that looks pretty good
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:28 pm

Mighty sexy! So I wasn't being too retarded by not finding it on the site... Something to think about... I think my next armor is going to be like 15oz hide plates riveted to 5oz soft leather. I think I'll replace my 23 lb armored kilt with that as well at some point soon. Should save at least 10 lbs.

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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Solusar » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:03 pm

That is in fact a very sexy kit.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby debuenzo » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:16 pm

that guy looks awesome
..the ninja chair, on the other hand, doesnt
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Winfang » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:24 pm

That's Count William from Glen Ahben.
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Re: Kicked off the Pizza Board

Postby bangor » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:54 pm

Arrakis wrote:You know... I'm almost at a loss as to why anyone posts on the Dag boards any more. They're welcome here, they're welcome on the MidWest forums... why go to the most restrictive place to post?


Well, it's an "unofficial" forum linked directly to the main official page, and happens to be in the same domain. Folks who post there are either new players, don't know anything else, don't want to care, or have some beef.

Seriously, who puts beef on pizza?
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Re: Kicked off the Pizza Board

Postby Cib » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:36 pm

Arrakis wrote:I sort of wish we could lure some of the garb snobs to our boards for some discussions...


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Re: Kicked off the Pizza Board

Postby The Great Gigsby » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:02 pm

bangor wrote:Seriously, who puts beef on pizza?
I bet Dominus puts beef on his pizza.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Solusar » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:15 pm

In the short time I worked at Domino's, a very large amount of people ordered beef on their pizzas. But then again there were all fat, worthless ****, so what do you expect?
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:21 am

Most of us garb snobs ARE already here, it's just that the threads don't come up, and our (my, at least) perception is that people here don't care.

And Winfang, I'm going to have to disagree, lamellar was actually VERY rare among Vikings, and during the Viking period is represented by only two (highly fragmentary) finds that I know of, on Swedish sites. There is absolutely no evidence for the Danes or Norse wearing lamellar.

Also, kinda funny, but that guy's knife is actually Persian. Funny, because otherwise, his garb is absolutely perfect.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Winfang » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:57 am

And Winfang, I'm going to have to disagree, lamellar was actually VERY rare among Vikings, and during the Viking period is represented by only two (highly fragmentary) finds that I know of, on Swedish sites. There is absolutely no evidence for the Danes or Norse wearing lamellar.

Also, kinda funny, but that guy's knife is actually Persian. Funny, because otherwise, his garb is absolutely perfect.


There is also documented accounts of the vikings while invading England wearing lamellar. Also the Varangians would have had access to lamellar as well. The Rus had lamellar as well. The knife that he has looks like saex to me. His kit is actually a Rus kit, the biggest evidence of it is the helmet.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:28 am

Apparently once the Rus made it to the Byzantine Empire and became the Varangian Guard they adopted the "opulent" look of the area they now lived in. Basically they thought everyone in the Byzantine empire dressed pimp as ****, and they wanted in. The Norse especially, were not real fancy, pretty much any super pimp viking stuff that has been found had outside influence.

This is all based on reading I have done recently... Lamelar looks really nice, but as I play around a 900 AD Norse viking, I don't know that it's exactly my bag... But, this is all a fantasy setting, so...

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Re: Kicked off the Pizza Board

Postby Stahlgrim » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:22 am

yep the knife is a seax
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seax
used by both the vikings and the saxons and the vikings /rus who served as varangians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varangian
for the byzantine emporer wore lamallar and often upon leaving his service went back to their homeland with their armor and weapons. some sagas mention men returning from his service richly decked out in red and gold cloaks with lamallar kilbanions over their chainmail.
more can be found here
http://www.geocities.com/egfrothos/
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Ilariia Bulochnika » Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:58 am

Thrush Svartehjertet wrote: pimp viking


Does Thorrinn need to break out his "Viking Pimp" Tudor outfit again?

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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Solusar » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:48 am

Brenna, yes, in fact yes he does.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Thrush Svartehjertet » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:50 am

Dude... If we wants molested again...

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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Winfang » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:00 am

Egfrothos' site is just pure awesomeness. The only problem with it is that it's on GeoCities :(
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:01 pm

Winfang wrote:
And Winfang, I'm going to have to disagree, lamellar was actually VERY rare among Vikings, and during the Viking period is represented by only two (highly fragmentary) finds that I know of, on Swedish sites. There is absolutely no evidence for the Danes or Norse wearing lamellar.

Also, kinda funny, but that guy's knife is actually Persian. Funny, because otherwise, his garb is absolutely perfect.


There is also documented accounts of the vikings while invading England wearing lamellar. Also the Varangians would have had access to lamellar as well. The Rus had lamellar as well. The knife that he has looks like saex to me. His kit is actually a Rus kit, the biggest evidence of it is the helmet.


I'm aware that he's Rus, and I'm aware that they had access to lamellar in Byzantine service, although that's not evidence for their using it wide scale (Varangian Guard is not something I know too much about, though, so maybe there are written accounts or pictures of Guardsmen showing them doing so?) but the evidence for them bringing it back to Scandinavia with them is very, very slight. The only documented case of Scandinavian Vikings wearing lamellar, that I know of, is the blates from Birka, Sweden.

You say that there are documented accounts of the Vikings (Danes, I assume?) wearing lamellar while invading England? Please, share this source, I'm not familiar with it.

But yeah, it does seem to be a seax . . . it was a bit late, and I was a bit drunk, last night.

The knife he's carrying really does look like a type of Persian knife known as a kard, which he seems to have coopted as a seax. Now that it's a reasonable hour and I'm thinking straight, I actually think it'd a really nice touch to his garb, shows a bit of well-travelledness without going overboard on Byzantine jewelry or something.

Here's a actual kard made in Iran that's housed at the Met:

Image

And here's a picture of a modern reproduction in the typical sheath:

Image

What he's carrying seems to be too narrow-bladed to be a typical seax, but I suppose he could just have an atypical model.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Winfang » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Here is a good thread about vikings in general, including lamellar.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... &start=105

"Thay wenten out of ha? shyppes, sum with longe swerdes, some with Iren pletes & round sheldes well I-bound about with Iren, swerdes & speres & axys ynowe, & comen well ordeynly for to assaylle the toun on the eest half."
-The English Conquest of Ireland. A.D. 1166-1185 Mainly from the 'Expugnatio Hibernica' of Giraldus Cambrensis, Giraldus, Frederick James Furnivall 1896, pg 46
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Fri Feb 13, 2009 5:11 pm

I'm familiar with the thread, and several others like it on the Archives, but the fact that SCAdian Vikings are lam-heavy doesn't mean that real ones were.

Gerald of Wales should not be taken at face value. He describes customs and rites that had not been commonly practices for centuries, as if they were everyday occurrences, and writes with a very strong bias against the native Irish as well as, well, anyone who isn't a Norman. In any case, I can't find a copy of it in Latin to look the passage up, and have no idea how accurate the 15th cenutry translation you posted is.

That passage you quote isn't necessarily evidence for lamellar, either, even if it can be read at face value as true. It just says they had iron plates, which could mean any of a number of different things. Also, do you know WHO he's referring to attacking Dublin? It doesn't really seem to be clear, other than that they're probably Scandanavians of some sort.

Also, it should be pointed out that he's writing in the late 12th century, describing a battle that occurred in 1171 . . . and the habits and customs of Norwegians and Ostmen in the High Middle Ages are very different than the habits and customs of the Viking Age. By the battle of Visby in the 14th century, it would seem that lamellar was quite a common piece of equipment among Scandanavians, along with plenty of other things that simply cannot be documented in early time periods.

So, lamellar was in use by the descendants of Vikings by 1171 during the Anglo-Norman invasion of Ireland? Maybe, I don't know, but that's a very, very different proposition than saying that the Vikings had lamellar when they invaded England in the 9th century.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby debuenzo » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:33 pm

wow, oisin....will you have my babies?
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:11 pm

:fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish:
Last edited by Oisin on Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby debuenzo » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:01 pm

tsk, tsk
historian, yes...
gentleman, no... ?:(
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Mon Feb 16, 2009 4:41 pm

Sorry, I wasn't sure how to interpret that comment. I thought you were being jokingly sarcastic, the sort of thing someone would say around a Black Company camp fire, so I responded in the same light.

Internet = does not convey subtle meanings well.

Edited above.

EDIT: Also, the term is archaeologist. I haven't studied history (formally, at least) since high school. We're kinda like historians with tans, girlfriends, and a basic understanding of what life outside of academia is like.. :pirate:
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Solusar » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:02 pm

Oisin is joking, no one has a girlfriend.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:05 pm

*, Sol, you caught me . . . we all have non-monogamous pansexual friends with benefits . . . by which I really mean, San Francisco in '69 doesn't have anything on an archaeologists' campsite after hours as far as orgies go. :angel:
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:39 pm

Oisin, you forgot

-no money

-alcoholism
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Mon Feb 16, 2009 7:51 pm

I thought that was implied? ;)
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Are you familiar with

http://www.shovelbums.org/

?

I recommend you bookmark it now.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Solusar » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:27 pm

Good link Magnus. I love the "Original Homeland Security". I still feel bad for ruining a whole country. Poor natives :(
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:54 pm

Yeah, it's an archaeologist's best friend on the internet. Highly recommended site for anyone looking for anything archaeological in the US.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby debuenzo » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:58 pm

i was expecting something WAY cooler with a link with that name...oh well :wizzard:
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Derian » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:00 pm

Whoever designed that website should be slapped right in the mouth.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Arrakis » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:24 pm

Derian wrote:Whoever designed that website should be slapped right in the mouth.


^ TRUTH ^
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Big King Jimmy » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:59 pm

Derian wrote:Whoever designed that website should be slapped right in the mouth.


I laughed my * off... then clicked the link and laughed 10 times harder as I scrolled down past ads to find more content.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:08 am

Archaeologists are used to extracting valuable information from jumbled nonsense, however, so I doubt that site will be changed any time soon.

:P
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Derian » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:59 am

Touche'.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Stahlgrim » Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:16 pm

so lamellar had only one example in period what about Mail?


Figure 1. The Gjermundbu Mail Shirt.
This article is a revised version of a similar article which appeared in the thirty fourth issue of the Varangian Voice (FEB 1995). This article was made necessary after receiving information via Peter Beatson entitled 'Catalogue of Scandinavian Mail' by Sonia A. O'Connor2, which counters some of the information supplied by Irmelin Martins, the Senior Curator at the Universitets Oldsaksamling in Oslo, Norway.
The Gjermundbu Mail (figure 1.) is the only Viking Age mail shirt to be found in Scandinavia. There are other finds of mail but they are small, or date from the earlier Vendal period or can not be dated for certain. The mail shirt was a part of a rich male cremation grave which also contained the only Viking Age 'spectacle helm' to be found in Scandinavia (figure 2.), along with; weapons, riding gear, cooking implements and other artefacts dating from the 10th century. The mail shirt was found in Gjermundbu, Norway, and now resides at the Universitets Oldsaksamling in Oslo, Norway, Reference No C273171.


Figure 2, The 'Spectacle Helm' from the Gjermundbu find.

The mail shirt was found in some eighty five fragments or rather lumps and had been in the ground from about a thousand years after a cremation burial. The form of the mail shirt has been reconstructed to produce the front of a mail shirt of about fifty five centimetres in length from bottom to shoulder.1. O'Connor questions the positional relationship used in the reconstruction suggesting some of the fragments have been placed inside out or upside down. Also according to Martins there are still some mail rings attached to the lower edge of the helm which would indicate an aventail (similar to the Vendal helms 2), this would mean that some of the mail fragments originally attributed to the mail shirt could actually have come from the helm's aventail. 3.
O'Connor gives a much better idea of the dimensions of the rings used, having actually taken measurements of a number of the rings. The mail is constructed of rings with an anticlock-wise lap, oval rivet hole and high domed rivet head with prominent oval tail of wire with a subcircular cross section, with alternating rows of rings of an unknown closure type, circular in shape but with flats on the external circumferences and wire of subrectangular cross section.

Dimensions of rings measured (measurements are in millimetres).

Riveted rings:

Ring diameters; 7.4, 7.7, 7.7, 7.7,8.3.

Wire; 1.09*1.24, 1.35*1.45, 1.38* 1.38, 1.39*1.68, 1.44*1.50.

Unknown rings:

Ring diameters; 8.35 (sd=0.3, n=5).

Wire; 1.2*1.4, 1.7*1.5, 1.7*1.5, 2.0*1.4, 2.0*1.52.
the problem with both types of armor is they are so easily destroyed we really don't know how widely spread either type were used.

A link to my favorite book on archeology

http://www.amazon.com/Motel-Mysteries-D ... 425&sr=8-7
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Isk » Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:55 pm

Hijacking in with a slightly relevant question: Is anyone aware of any authentic, pre-victorian, historical example of a full butted mail garment? I have talked to a few SCA people who swore up and down there had been at least one found, but I have never found a valid reference to any historical butted mail that was not considered a field repair.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:30 am

There used to be an essay up on the Armour Archive claiming that about half of them were, but it's looooong discredited. The only example I know of is a ceremonial helmet with a butted maille drape in the St. Louis art museum, a piece clearly intended to have far more fashion appeal than practical armouring value.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Zwei ap Owen » Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:44 pm

Oisin wrote:We're kinda like historians with tans, girlfriends, and a basic understanding of what life outside of academia is like.. :pirate:


I get my chicks from the English department. But you can keep the other two for all I care.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:16 am

I dunno which school you go to, but all the English chicks here are lesbians, *, or both . . .
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Zwei ap Owen » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:18 pm

Ohio State. It helps when they're in medieval studies; most of the obnoxious ones end up doing modern theory-driven crap.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:38 pm

My gf might be at OSU for Classics next year . . . she also wants to take some classes with the Medieval Studies program.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Sir Cairbre » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:52 pm

Oisin, if you end up going to OSU, check out FightColumbus.com.

For that part too, Zwei we have a class planned, and probably tomorrow after our impromptu practice we will decide on the official opener date.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Oisin » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:05 pm

No chance I'll be going to school there, but I might try and get a job in the area. I'm sure I'll end up fighting with y'all if I end up out there.
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Michael » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:25 pm

I know, we have pretty high saturation on this board but I cant help but respond to a mention of fighting on Columbus with an SKBC plug.

http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=130&t=28815
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Re: Kicked off the Dagorhir Board

Postby Sir Cairbre » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:27 pm

Michael wrote:I know, we have pretty high saturation on this board but I cant help but respond to a mention of fighting on Columbus with an SKBC plug.

http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=130&t=28815


I am totally going and I have already told most of the guys who are involved with Fight Columbus about it as well.
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