Belegarth

Peanut of Loderia wrote:

Wrath555 wrote:Do not the rules of the game dictate the fighting of the organization? I'm certain they do.

They do. But you neither stated the rules of this game nor the rules of the other therefore only bringing an answer that was not helpful at all. You also referred to the rules of both games ten years ago; in ten years a lot can (and has) changed. Either you haven't looked at one or the other sets of rules since then, or the answer was either deliberately or unintentionally outdated and therefore useless.

so you're telling me the origin and history of the rules/fighting of this organization are useless? history is useless in a historical re-enactment game?

what I am trying to tell you kids is that the games are minutely different in many aspects based on things that happened 10 yrs ago.

If he would like a well rounded answer, thats the best one there is. How the two organizations differ now are irrelevant.. BECAUSE it has been 10 yrs. Catch my drift?

Yeah, you're off to a flying start on the forums. Welcome.

What they're telling you is that the original poster didn't ask for an origin story. He asked for a practical answer in helping to construct a small fact sheet for cross-gamers. You wanna write a dissertation on the split, go for it. We can add it to the pile.

Also, we are in no way a reenactment game. So maybe don't come here and start laying down facts until you get yours straight, huh?

I'd go ahead and lurk for a while, dude, get a feel for how our culture actually is. It'll ease your time here a lot.

I've only been here a day and I'm sorry to say I'm already a little disturbed by the "cult-ure" here.

Wrath555 wrote:"cult-ure"

It's not for everyone, dude. Where you from anyway?

ok I will give you the benefit of the doubt, every so often one of fighters go on the dag board, tries to stir up trouble, they justly get the ban hammer. that makes it tougher for Bel. players to post over there.
then every so often a Dag player comes over here to stir up trouble. your 1st post is about splits and copy right in a thread over a year old, we think troll.

USA wise?

East Coast

I really only came o the Bel boards for one reason and that is to play catch up.

First let me say I am neither a realm or unit leader, merely a veteran.

I started in Dag about 14 yrs ago, took a little hiatus around '02 and came back after a couple of years. I'm just curious to see what happened with the Belegarth Debacle and see where it is headed (I wasn't completely removed from the situation but enough nonetheless).... aaaand from what i've seen there is a little dag bashing here and I find it curious.. mainly because it's the younger players that do the majority of it? Is it because they don't know any better or because thats all they know of Dag from the Vets here?

Do they know where Bel Came from? Why it is here, and what purpose it serves? I don't claim to know all the answers but I do know that there are some that are either under informed, undereducated or totally belligerent as to its origins.. and I really don't think it is necessary... a little education goes a long way.

My first post was not intended to be trolling and I can see if it appears that way but I really was giving a straight answer.

I meant what city or realm are you from. It would give us a better idea of who you are, the people you fight with, your exposure to other combat groups etc. We could also point you in the direction of nearby events.

These guys are trying to help you Wrath. If you are a vet then I'll give you that much, but when you get on these boards and bring up such an old topic all we see is "Wrath555" and think "oh no, here is some new guy trying to give advice on something that is long forgotten(or that's what I think)." It's like what Giggles is saying, if we don't know where your from, then we can't help you a whole lot.

Sheesh, dude, both games fighters are sooooo past this. So much so, that both games welcome each others fighters to our events with open arms and a real sense of shared camaraderie. We sit around campfires and laugh about the idiocy of our forefathers for the crap that happened over a decade ago. We are nice to each other on each others boards, cause we just want to go to an event, fight like warrior poets and drink like orks.

On the Dag boards we banhammer idiots trying to stir this crap up, and here, there seems to be a forum brute squad that deals with the chodes from Dag who dredge up the past. After 10 years apart our rules are still strikingly similar. A testament to the people who thought this up in the first place. This sport/game is so fun that it has survived the slings and arrows of the politically inept, and the lack of foresight of the people involved.

In the end, what we have is 1 game/sport with 2 names, and a scant few who give rats * whose name is on the paperwork running an event. We just want someone in charge to tell us what ridiculous costume we have to wear, who we are supposed to kill, when we can start killing them.

Much like the mythical Hatfields and McCoys, most really don't know why we hate each other, nor do we care, we are warriors, so we fight.

well said.

Having come from the times before the split myself, I can tell you Bel is no longer simply the love child of Dag, but it's own organization. It thrives on it's own. Though the Rule sets are very simular, some minor aspects have changed between the two groups. It was those current differences that were being discussed. The point most people are trying to make, is that bringing up the split only continues to fuel bad feelings on both sides. Where we are now and where the game is going are much more important than how it was started, or what group we split from.

Also I agree with everything Blackhawk said above.

Blackhawk wrote:Sheesh, dude, both games fighters are sooooo past this. So much so, that both games welcome each others fighters to our events with open arms and a real sense of shared camaraderie. We sit around campfires and laugh about the idiocy of our forefathers for the crap that happened over a decade ago. We are nice to each other on each others boards, cause we just want to go to an event, fight like warrior poets and drink like orks.

On the Dag boards we banhammer idiots trying to stir this crap up, and here, there seems to be a forum brute squad that deals with the chodes from Dag who dredge up the past. After 10 years apart our rules are still strikingly similar. A testament to the people who thought this up in the first place. This sport/game is so fun that it has survived the slings and arrows of the politically inept, and the lack of foresight of the people involved.

In the end, what we have is 1 game/sport with 2 names, and a scant few who give rats * whose name is on the paperwork running an event. We just want someone in charge to tell us what ridiculous costume we have to wear, who we are supposed to kill, when we can start killing them.

Much like the mythical Hatfields and McCoys, most really don't know why we hate each other, nor do we care, we are warriors, so we fight.

Your missing my point.

I see that there is much much more communication than in the past and resolving issues, but the newer members here are also being influenced, and vice versa. Not too long ago a vid was posted about (and I understand it's a joke) the Nazi-ism of dag? from someone who has been in the games for less than 5 yrs? Where is he getting his information, his influence? Why does that even happen anymore if everyone is "so over this"? It's because everyone is not "so over this".

I have a lot of questions and my intent is NOT to separate the 2 entities, but it seems there is more to combat here than just forum trolls.

So how do we fix it? I would love to see Pentwyvern and Dur-Demarion and the other groups that left end up on the Ragnarok field in full force again and see a nice big happy family but c'mon... the undercurrent here (and elsewhere) is noticeable.

To be fair, I wasn't Dag bashing. I've got plenty of friends in both games. My face and name are on the Olympics website, for crying out loud. I'd have been at Rag last summer if you guys hadn't moved it to the far end of the country (I get why you had to, still kinda ruined my plans. c'est la vive).

It's your posts that are coming under fire, not your organization. And even then, I'm not trying to harsh on you, man. It may not seem like it, but I'm one of the nice guys here. I'm trying to help you out before you stir up one of the more volatile members, who are less delicate about offering advice.

Wrath555 wrote:So how do we fix it? ... the undercurrent here (and elsewhere) is noticeable.

We fix it by leaving it buried to rot and ignoring it. That's been our approach, and people showing up with no other stated purpose but to dredge it back up will admittedly receive rather abrupt responses. I don't know who made that particular video, but I do know that subtitling that scene is a fairly popular internet meme at the moment. One very well known Amtgard member did the same thing bashing an internal issue about 3 or 4 months ago. You really think coming over here and stirring up a schism argument over somebody's youtube joke is going to improve anything?

We've got cross-gaming, we've got lots of good feeling. Bigger names in Belegarth have been showing up to Dag events more and more. Hell, my home realm of Numenor had knights left and right at Olympics the last couple years now. I think you're over-reacting, and I don't think what you're doing is a positive step.

My last try at offering advice. Best of luck, man.

Really? Really? We're now in the decade anniversary of all this pointless **** and people are STILL arguing about it on teh internetz? Get over it. It was nothing but a bunch of paranoid internet misunderstandings in the first place, with dumbasses on both sides. No one should give a **** anymore.

BH . . . I find the idea of the founder personalities of the split being your forefathers kinda amusing. :-P

I think one of the biggest helps in patching things up, has been big names from Dag. like Blackhawk coming over to our board and posting in a friendly manner, it is easy to hate the other guy's when you don't them.

One: Yeah, history is irrelevant in the context of the question.

Two:BLACKHAWK HAS SPOKEN! (Oops, wrong forum.)

Three: Wasn't the Dag-Nazi video posted on the dag forums first? I think so.

You come over here and start complaining about our cult-ure. As someone said in GM awhile ago, that's like going to someones party with all his friends and calling him a *.

And why do the young kids who have started less than five years ago (me included) not know much about the split? Because NOBODY **** CARES ANYMORE. If asked it usually comes down to "Nerd politics."

BH has also done a great deal to help many of us get back on the Dag boards, opening the lines of communication a great deal more.

BTW- the Nazi thing was made by a Dag. person, for Dag people, and was posted to their boards first before it was posted here. Stop stirring the pot with misinformation and political BS. We are all over it. Really, we are. We understand that returning to a single organization will not happen, but that by having more open communication and cross gaming we have healed those old wounds among the people who still fight, mostly. And we continue to do so.

Just found out who Wraith555 is, (No I am not telling). But it was an innocent question that we totally overreacted to. Yay us.

But I totally dig the fact that we all rally together to cut any rehashing of decade old drama off.

Peanut of Loderia wrote:Three: Wasn't the Dag-Nazi video posted on the dag forums first? I think so.
...
And why do the young kids who have started less than five years ago (me included) not know much about the split? Because NOBODY **** CARES ANYMORE. If asked it usually comes down to "Nerd politics."

Great quote Peanut, "Nerd Politics". I love that because it is so true.

And yeah, that video was posted on the Dag boards, playing on the meme, and nobody cares other than to laugh at it.

Blackhawk wrote:Sheesh, dude, both games fighters are sooooo past this. So much so, that both games welcome each others fighters to our events with open arms and a real sense of shared camaraderie.

Quoted that for the ever loving truth of it. 99% of us on both sides just don't care - heck, you can be the Grand Poobah of Amt-ville and you're just as welcome at events (your "omni-sword" maybe not so much).

Slagar wrote:... for crying out loud. I'd have been at Rag last summer if you guys hadn't moved it to the far end of the country

Your location says "Champaign, IL" - they moved it an hour or so further East of you. One state line further in the land of mid-sized states. Waah. I got your "far end of the country" for ya, I have to fly in every year.

regardless of where who what..whatever about the video... the relevancy remains about the gist of the video... and re-unification hasn't happened yet... So I pull his whole mess out of the swamps of yesteryear to ask:

What has to take place to make this happen in a reasonable amount of time.

I.d. the problem, find a solution, administer the solution, kill the problem..

Reunification will never happen. There are very large and outspoken factions who'd actively oppose it. I'm one of them.

We're our own group, with our own traditions, our own culture, and our own way of doing things. We're not interested in giving that up, ever. And, on top of that, you'll be hard-pressed to find anybody here who'd consider that a 'problem'.

Thanks for posting here, but I'm afraid I doubt anybody's interested in what you're plugging.

Wrath555 wrote:regardless of where who what..whatever about the video... the relevancy remains about the gist of the video... and re-unification hasn't happened yet... So I pull his whole mess out of the swamps of yesteryear to ask:

What has to take place to make this happen in a reasonable amount of time.

I.d. the problem, find a solution, administer the solution, kill the problem..

I don't think you get it. The minor differences (charters) etc.. that make our game different are huge differences when it comes to reunification.

And maybe its a good thing we have two organizations rather than one, its not like bel people aren't allowed on a dag field or vice versa.

Check this out http://www.geddon.org/index.php/Dagorhi ... Comparison .

And the hitler thing is a meme goddamnit.

we are unified. we are all foam medieval combat sports. the different names and rule differences are preferences and variations on the same thing.

i can't speak for other places but out west we have a lot of cross over fighters from ampt and dag and bel all going to each others events and appreciating the different rule sets.

foam fighting is like ice cream: it comes in different flavors, but it's all delicious. and it's all ice cream.

being split isn't a problem so please don't make it one.

Like racism, there's only differences if you want there to be... I think racists should be punched in the face... Now back to your lives... I need a beer...

Thrush
berserk

I like there being different games in different regions. It allows us to all meet each other without traveling ridiculously long distances. Plus with the different regions there's different flavors of fighting.

Not too long ago a vid was posted about (and I understand it's a joke) the Nazi-ism of dag?

Are we talking about the video where all of Hitler's gear is broken? Because that was hilarious and applicable to all the foam games. I don't think anyone went "LOL Hitler=Dagorhir." I'd like to think our Glenn Beck-factor is more in check than that.

Wrath555 wrote:I see that there is much much more communication than in the past and resolving issues, but the newer members here are also being influenced, and vice versa. Not too long ago a vid was posted about (and I understand it's a joke) the Nazi-ism of dag?

<rant>

I'm completely cool with 99.9% of Dag. You, on the other hand, no matter what you say, you're a ****' idiot. Call it flaming or whatever, I don't care.

Stop talkin' about **** you know nothing about. It's funny how nobody was bashing Dag, then you get on here and start bashing non-existent Bel members.

On one hand, you're talking about games gettin' together and being a big happy family, then on the other hand, you're trying to TRYING to bash Bel members for comparing Dag to Nazism?

Really, dude?

</rant>

I was gonna say, what I like about my Bel realm is that we have such close ties with our brothers in the Amtgard world. Don't care about "brand names", don't really care about reunification. Dag's got their game, their name on lockdown, and their board friendly but high censorship. Whatever, they're doing their thing and that's fine.

Here? Well, you have the Viking Bastards. What else you need?

Our Tuesday night practice has regular attendees from Dag, Darkon and Amptgard. And sometimes dudes from Bel swing through. We all get along great and bring different skills to the practice....

Thrush
berserk

Our local Dag realm are our brothers. My only hope going forward is that we converge our rules sets, rather than diverge, thereby keeping cross-gaming easy. If I were to recommend a way to keep the two sports close, it would be to have an official non-voting member of each sport on each others war council. However, I honestly think we have enough cross-talk and cross membership that this is basically already true and therefore unnecessary.

Tor wrote:Here? Well, you have the Viking Bastards. What else you need?

* sigged

Anastasia of Chamonix wrote:Our local Dag realm are our brothers. My only hope going forward is that we converge our rules sets, rather than diverge, thereby keeping cross-gaming easy. If I were to recommend a way to keep the two sports close, it would be to have an official non-voting member of each sport on each others war council. However, I honestly think we have enough cross-talk and cross membership that this is basically already true and therefore unnecessary.

I guess here we are total opposites. I like the divergences we've made lately, and I hope that we continue to be the game we want to be, based on a voting system we have in place, and they do the same. We're 2 different games, and if we can cross game into amtgard, Darkon, and even some guys around here have done N.E.R.O. no problem, then even with 10x the amount of variation this shouldn't be an issue.

I see it both ways. I hate that we have 700 fighters in So Cal spread over 40 systems. I love that Dag/Amt/Bel and others all get together for large events, because we are related and our rules sets are well-established and thought out. It would greatly bother me if we lost that and were unable to come together.

I want to see this sport grow to be a great national hobby, maybe someday it will be like those sports that have the two-sides that come together...like the world series or something. I don't know enough about other sports, but I think you catch my drift. I just want us to be able to continue our cross-gaming fun.

The problem isn't incompatibility of major systems. The problem is that people don't bother to look up an established system, they just make up some new homebrew joint. That problem is prolific in New England; every COUNTY has its own LARP system.

you see this is what i love about mature people. Thank you guys for backing me up about the video I made, wasn't trying to bash anything at all, and I appreciate that most of you see that.

Now here's my opinion about Dag/Bel. Maybe this can help out your thoughts a lil' bit Wrath.

I am a dag fighter and have been for almost seven years now. I enjoy the experience, partly for the battle scenarios and the roleplaying, but mostly for the fighting.

I heard about bel throughout the years of my fighting. Some of it was trash talk, but most of it was good. My group had been to several bel events and told me the fighting was awesome and that I should go.

I went to Okfest for the first time this year. It was the first bel event that I went to and once again. Most of the talk that I heard about dag was some trash, but mostly good. I understand that there are a few differences in the two games. I caught on to the rules withing a minute because like alot of people said, there are only some minor differences.

I really liked the way that this group had accepted me and I will continue to go to both group's events. Of course there are always going to be some tightwad who thinks he's better than everyone because he's in a certain group, or he has a specific trick. But one way or another, they will be called out and eventually they stop, if not, they leave the boards, one way or another.

Btw, about that vid. I was not discriminating either game or any person for that matter, I was actually sure that when I posted it, someone was going to tell me that I needed to take it off . I am grateful that you guys all took it with some enthusiasm.

Hope to see ya'll at the opener!

Scoth

Tor wrote:I was gonna say, what I like about my Bel realm is that we have such close ties with our brothers in the Amtgard world. Don't care about "brand names".
Here? Well, you have the Viking Bastards. What else you need?

Truth!

QuickTubes et all....

L

To address Ana concerns....right now we, as a community of foam slingers, are seeing an increase in cross gaming in recent years. People can talk on the Dag boards more openly now. Amtgarders come to Bel and vice versa. Dag people at Bel events, Bel peeps at Dag events. Cross gaming is becoming more prevalent, not less. I don't think we'll ever see a Dag/Bel reunion, or a single system that makes everyone happy. Even individual realms vary. Take a realm like Numenor and compare them to Stygia. We are much less competetive, in general, than they are. As a result our culture and fighting styles are different too. Niether is wrong, just different.

I think as long as we can all come together and fight, it's not going to matter if the systems are a bit different, or vastly different, there will always be people who like their particular game best, and those who don't really care and just wanna go fight with whoever.

Soo Ma Tai wrote: I don't think we'll ever see a Dag/Bel reunion, or a single system that makes everyone happy. Even individual realms vary...

I think as long as we can all come together and fight, it's not going to matter if the systems are a bit different, or vastly different, there will always be people who like their particular game best, and those who don't really care and just wanna go fight with whoever.

I agree on both points - particularly on the cross-gaming thing. Most of us who do it realize that what works at home may not work at a place you visit, even within the same game.

And that latter part is what I'd emphasize in your comment on Dag and Bel - there's likely more difference between realms and chapters within each game than between the games themselves. As we cross-game more, and have more and better attended regional events, we'll likely see that dynamic change.

Arrakis wrote:The problem isn't incompatibility of major systems. The problem is that people don't bother to look up an established system, they just make up some new homebrew joint. That problem is prolific in New England; every COUNTY has its own LARP system.

Same here. Also, I couldn't agree more with Soo, let's all come together and fight!

Most of this thread is considerably more thought-out and helpful then what you would have seen two, three years ago. Even our resident Viking * had something to say that wasn't exceptionally inflammatory. I can see where Mr. Wrath might take the vid as bashing or in a hostile manner, having obviously not see the meme. That hilarious, hilarious meme.
I am personally vehement in our new realm here in Portland, OR being as egalitarian as possible to help further along cross-gaming and participation. We are very close to some of our Amtgard brethren and once they start to warm up to us I believe we will have a huge pool of fighters, non-coms, flurbs and stick-jocks to swim in. You hear a lot of ****; but just how personal are you going to take this, as an adult and a foam-warrior? There is obviously going to be drama and such when there is such a close group but if you get bogged down with that then you will not be able to move forward as a group of like-minded people, as a tribe of foam-fighting warrior-nerds. Put aside your pride, try to understand where they're coming from and root out any miscomunication not with talk(as words are cheap) but with action on and off the field.
Obviously, as my title entails, I might not be the best candidate for attending local LARP chapters. I was raised in Babylon, where we fight as hard as we party. This has probably colored people in Amtgard's opinion of Belegrim, but I know that I'm slowly but surely convincing the more worthy people to come try it out. And it is good. The amount of gamers we have here is insane, but not unbelievable considering how much it rains here in the off-season. I want this to be an exercise in cross-gaming, and I want to be able to leave it in a few years and see it flourish without any beureaucratic, drama-infused idiocy that obviously still permeates the different games. Which is fair; all siblings fight, but that just brings them closer together in the long run, which is what I hope to achieve.
Thanks for reading, sorry for the verbosity of the post and no one should take any offense at the generalities I've posted, as I'm decidedly not trying to sound the Belegarth-Elitist at all.

I just want the Dag fighting system, the weapons much heavier minimum weight but with Bele crafting sophistication and non of this crappy half assed super quick builds I see people in dag are making. A weapon that has 5 inches of weapon tip off the core is passable? that is *. I would fail it.
Plus I would allow rigid hands and MMA gloves to protect hands. Too many people getting busted knuckles. Yes, the MMA and Hockey gloves will stick out like a sore thumb, because I want garb and armor the only thing visible on the field, make some kind of sock/glove cover for the glove, and we wount be able to tell you have the protective gear on as much.

I want to only see GARB and ARMOR on the field. I would allow protective gear if they are in a nice looking sleeve cover thing. I want weapons heavier minimum weigh so that when it moves the weapon wount tap and the person hit will not say that they didnt feel it.

1oz per 2inch length blue will totally dispose of rhinohyde

Outhro Youkker wrote:I just want the Dag fighting system, the weapons much heavier minimum weight but with Bele crafting sophistication and non of this crappy half assed super quick builds I see people in dag are making. A weapon that has 5 inches of weapon tip off the core is passable? that is *. I would fail it.
Plus I would allow rigid hands and MMA gloves to protect hands. Too many people getting busted knuckles. Yes, the MMA and Hockey gloves will stick out like a sore thumb, because I want garb and armor the only thing visible on the field, make some kind of sock/glove cover for the glove, and we wount be able to tell you have the protective gear on as much.

I want to only see GARB and ARMOR on the field. I would allow protective gear if they are in a nice looking sleeve cover thing. I want weapons heavier minimum weigh so that when it moves the weapon wount tap and the person hit will not say that they didnt feel it.

1oz per 2inch length blue will totally dispose of rhinohyde

...

What are you talking about?

Just...

What?

Outhro Youkker wrote:1oz per 2inch length blue will totally dispose of rhinohyde

Spoken like someone who's never seen an SCA crown tourney. Cheating like a 40-year-old stockbroker, and hide that would stop center-fire rifle rounds. Changing the weapons wouldn't fix anything, dude.

I put supple hide over my mma gloves, you cant tell that they're gloves and not wicked gauntlets.

Outhro Youkker wrote:I just want the Dag fighting system, the weapons much heavier minimum weight but with Bele crafting sophistication and non of this crappy half assed super quick builds I see people in dag are making. A weapon that has 5 inches of weapon tip off the core is passable? that is *. I would fail it.
Plus I would allow rigid hands and MMA gloves to protect hands. Too many people getting busted knuckles. Yes, the MMA and Hockey gloves will stick out like a sore thumb, because I want garb and armor the only thing visible on the field, make some kind of sock/glove cover for the glove, and we wount be able to tell you have the protective gear on as much.

I want to only see GARB and ARMOR on the field. I would allow protective gear if they are in a nice looking sleeve cover thing. I want weapons heavier minimum weigh so that when it moves the weapon wount tap and the person hit will not say that they didnt feel it.

1oz per 2inch length blue will totally dispose of rhinohyde

Is this a troll? Well played sir well played..

We need a Lord of War 2.


Will

And it needs to be at a time where I can make it too.....