Belegarth

I was just wondering how bel knights are seen as compared to dag knights

Are they seen on the same level of exp and given the same respect? Can A dag knight squire someone who is primarily involved in bel? Is there a difference in what one must typically do to achieve knighthood? I've been wondering this for awhile...
Thanks!

This isn't really the right forum for this. And I'm not a knight.
But, I think it's up to the idividual knoght in both Bel and Dag. Niether group has set rules to knighthood. Some local groups have ruloes about it, but there are no national stanards.
In the SCA and Amtgard, there are rules about what people have to do to be knighted, so the indiviual knoghts all use the same standards(plus extra stuff, offentimes).
In Bel and Dag, I have never experienced any regularity or standards from one knight to the next.
FB

Sorry- I wasn't sure what forum to post it in

I'm going to move this to the "Other medieval sports forum".

I am a guy who fights in both games quite a lot. Knighthood is something that I care about and really want to see as a respected part of our game. Its late and Ill write something quick about it though.

Knights are supposed to be(in my eyes) the guys who go above an beyond in every aspect of the game and expect nothing for it.

I could care less about the chivalry and "honor" of knights. To me its about the person, if they themselves excell they deserve knighthood. This often comes off as them being a very courteous person(chivalry) and tend to be expect a fight to be fair(honor).

Anymore in Dagorhir, Knighthood is not held to a very high standard. There are a lot people who call themselves knights and dont show any of the things i expect from that title. In turn the seem to expect something in return. This is by no means true of all dagorhir knights, but because there is no governing body to distribute the title people just take it and drag it through the dirt.

In Belegarth, I see that there is at least a bit more structure to the system. It is more about fighting based then what I would focus on, but so is Bele on a whole. You tend to get a lot of guys who I see bust their asses with little reward, they know they are awesome though and can be a bit *. Example, Thorn of avalon busts his *, good fighter, not a bad guy when you get to know him, Humble is not a term i would use to describe him(ill get stabbed in the * for this comment, **** lefty)

There are pleanty of good knights on either side, and pleanty of bad ones. If you want to be a knight though, I would squire under someone who you think best desribes knight in your eyes or as close as a person can do it. Then strive to take it a step father, or closer to what you imagine knighthood to be.

To answer your questions though
1: Depends on the knight how much respect they recieve,
2: Sure It swaps both ways
3: Each knight changes what their squires must do, some are harder then others. Some **** heads just give themself a title and dont require anything.

I was talking about this with my realm leader earlier this week actually.

He was mentioning that not all the knights go through trials. Some are knighted based on service, or bravery, or loyalty for that matter.

Rausumea has some standards for knighthood that i believe the original knights set up, but beyond that...there is no hard and fast rule.

From what i know, its takes years and years to become a knight officially....and about 45 seconds for some tool to walk onto the field and insist that you call him Sir fluffy.

While im not a fan of the years and years thing, i do think that a Knight should be someone that goes above and beyond in every aspect of the sport. I do like the honor and chivalry of the knights, and i do think that knights should demonstrate that at least some of the time.

Having said all that, i have no desire for that title. Unless it was bestowed spur of the moment by some other knight, i don't see myself ever becoming a knight or being interested in it for the most part.

what if you dont have step kids...

your screwed.

I love your randomness, To'Gur. You better come to Ides.

Three things, as far as I'm concerned:

Prowess, honor, quality.

Prowess is fighting skill. You don't have to be the best, you don't have to win every tournament, and doing so doesn't qualify you on its own, but you have to be a good fighter. At least in the top 10% or 15%, I'd say. A real knight has presence, has gravitas, on the battlefield, even if they aren't necessarily Peter the Quick in terms of pure stick skill.

Honor is chivalry and fair play. This is more than just taking your hits, although that's certainly important. It's a whole attitude, an ethos. Your word, let alone your oath, is an iron bound covenant.

Quality is strength of character and quality of presentation. You should be known as a good person, and should have high quality equipment. Your hospitality should be extended with magnanimity to every guest in your camp. You should respect everyone, those of higher station than yourself but most especially those of lower station. You should be the first to volunteer your time and services when your realm or your unit needs help, even for unpleasant tasks. Your garb, weapons, and armour should all be of very high quality, and you should show your station and your betterment in the way you dress and the way you act at all times.

Anyone who displays these three qualities, I will respect to the ends of the Earth. Anyone who doesn't is just another LARPer with wet dreams of greatness.

Oisin, though we don't agree on some ****, on this we are on exactly the same page.
I could not agree more. You said it very well, also.
Thank you.
FB

I agree too, but none of that has anything to do with knights, knighthood, etc. Most of the folks that I've met who exemplify those principles aren't playing knights...

Kyrax wrote:I agree too, but none of that has anything to do with knights, knighthood, etc. Most of the folks that I've met who exemplify those principles aren't playing knights...

Absolutely. Some of the people who live the traits I listed are knights. Some aren't. I will respect each equally for the character they display, regardless of the title they choose, if any.

But I'm not going to respect your knighthood if what I wrote above doesn't apply to you.

I've seen good and bad knights on both sides. A knight is only as good as the knight he squired under. 'Cause that's the person who knocked the ideals into the head (or not).

I always thought very highly of the knights from old Avalon but they had Boromir, Noip, Freyson and Cedric as their old guard pushing what a knight should be. Not surprisingly Galin and Winfang were strong in chivalry, making the game better and fighting skills. There were a LOT of people that squired that never made it to a knight's trial because if they didn't TRULY earn it, they didn't get it.

With that being said, just because you are chivalrous, make the game better and/or are a good fighter doesn't make you a knight. You can have these qualities and choose not to be a knight, it's up to the fighter.

I should add that this is what I think makes a good knight but I'm not a knight so it makes precious little difference.

Oisin wrote: Your garb, weapons, and armour should all be of very high quality

Just a question for you, why should the quality of your gear make a big difference? I mean yes knights should display themselves appropiately but the most honorable knights in bele and or dag might not be the most well off individuals we are in some hard times are we not??? maybe they get what they can that doesnt make them any less of a knight it doesnt degrade them in status because there not wearing the best garb around


what being a knight means to me is all the person it doesnt matter how they look you cannot judge a book by its cover its whats inside the person not whether they have high quality gear.


just my 2 cents

Phrix its about steping it up to the next level and setting the bar for the new guys should strive to. Fighting with good looking garb, good armor and good weapons helps the look. The good gear also helps the skill level(anyone who tells you differently is wrong) Im not saying if you dont have the cash you cant be a knight. You just still need to put the work in on all end of things. So you take those weapons you have that use Pvc and blue foam and you still make them the best you can. If you cant afford that Sorry but you need to take a look at your life and take a step back.

At SKBC last year someone ventured the questions to Brennon about how successful most of the Knights were in the real lifes as well as in Amt/bele. He put it out there that most all of them did quite well in all areas of their lives and he thinks that it was part of the reason they do well in fighting. They strive to be better and that helps a lot.

Duke Laurelen of the Cleftlands in the SCA told me about how he thinks that Knighthood in the SCA is not just about being a good fighter, and about being a good person in Fighting. Its about being that same person in life, you earn that through being helpfull anywhere. You are the first at events and the last to leave. You are also the guy at work who is busting your * so that someone else wont get fired.


So what im getting at is that I doubt you will not be able to afford the gear and garb or at least wont put in the effort to get it if you are truely a knight. At least in my eyes

In my opinion, dedication to the game is an important part of knighthood. Knights want to help the game improve, and they lead by example. This includes stepping it up with quality garb and gear.

Note that quality garb and gear doesn't require a lot of money. One can substitute time and labor (sew one's own garb, make one's own mail, etc.) for cash. And someone who makes that investment displays dedication to the game.

Anyway, that's my 2 coppers.

YIS,
Rufus of Dragon Coast

thanks Varadin that makes sence

So you take those weapons you have that use Pvc and blue foam and you still make them the best you can
If you cant afford that Sorry but you need to take a look at your life and take a step back.

Phrix wrote:

Oisin wrote: Your garb, weapons, and armour should all be of very high quality

Just a question for you, why should the quality of your gear make a big difference? I mean yes knights should display themselves appropiately but the most honorable knights in bele and or dag might not be the most well off individuals we are in some hard times are we not??? maybe they get what they can that doesnt make them any less of a knight it doesnt degrade them in status because there not wearing the best garb around


what being a knight means to me is all the person it doesnt matter how they look you cannot judge a book by its cover its whats inside the person not whether they have high quality gear.


just my 2 cents

Because by claiming the title of knight, you're claiming a title of honor (in the sense of honor as an award or elevation, not a sense of morals), a title of betterment, a title of warrior nobility. If you can't show that in every aspect of your involvement in Belegarth, Dagorhir, the SCA, or whatever else, then you don't deserve the title (in my opinion).

This does not require you spending a lot of money, but it does generally require either money or your own time and effort (or the time and effort of someone who's willing to do it for you for free, for non-monetary favors, or etc).

Having access to a certain level of material culture and wealth was certainly a requirement for knighthood back in the day, so to speak. Being able to show at least a shadow of that affluence should be a component of knighthood in any Medievalist organization. If that sounds elitist, that's because it probably is. Elevation to knighthood is (or should be), by definition, elevation to an elite society, and anyone who isn't elite doesn't deserve such elevation.

But that still doesn't require you to be rich in real life. Being rich helps, but being dedicated is more important.

but at the same time you can make yourself look good and not have it be the highest quality after all it is a sport / game (however you want to look at it) and no matter what at the end of the day its for fun to be with friends and hit them so yes a knight should be honorable, dutiful and dedicated .a knight should represent themselves in a manner that befits his station

Phrix wrote:but at the same time you can make yourself look good and not have it be the highest quality after all it is a sport / game (however you want to look at it) and no matter what at the end of the day its for fun to be with friends and hit them so yes a knight should be honorable, dutiful and dedicated .a knight should represent themselves in a manner that befits his station

I believe that's a rough paraphrase of what I just said, so yes.

Prowess, honor, quality are the three key words. Your garb doesn't have to be living history quality to be in the top 10% to 15% in terms of quality of presentation--in fact, that level of historicity and attention to detail probably puts you in the top 1/10th of 1% or fewer as far as members of Belegarth go.

Just remember, though, that that level of detail and excellence of presentation do NOT have to be expensive if you're willing to do a bit of research and do your own sewing or having a friend or family member who'll sew for you on the cheap.

lol were arguing the same point, i was agreeing with you

Phrix wrote:lol were arguing the same point, i was agreeing with you

I thought so, but it was really had to tell. Punctuation is your friend.

Oisin wrote:I thought so, but it was really had to tell. Punctuation is your friend.

Punc-tu-wha?..... lol

Phrix: If you aren't willing to put in a truly excessive amount of time AND money going to events, practicing, helping your local group, making garb for yourself and others, helping people learn to fight, driving to practices, building a pell, and making really competitive gear, you aren't going to become a respected knight.

That is, shut up. You DO have to be moderately successful (i.e., not a jobless loser) to become a proper knight in one of these organizations.

I wasn't gonna say it, but it's true.

You at least need a place to keep your horde of equptment, a way to get to events, and a pretty much constant supply of weapons.
Making a decent kit is the cheapest thing out of all the **** a knight has to do.
And keep in mind, it doesn't have to be a FANCY kit. It just has to be of good quality. If a person who is knighted doesn't want to wear a shiny hat, he doesn't have to.
Quality doesn't mean expensive. It means good ****.
FB

Forkbeard wrote:Quality doesn't mean expensive. It means good ****.
FB

that's the god's honest truth.

I will add (mostly along the same lines) if a knight wants to be a knight that better's their game then they have to at least have a financial situation that lets them make it to events, without being a burden on everyone around them so they can make a positive difference in the game.

If you don't make it to events and meet the people of the game, then what's the point? Both games are about the people who play them.

Varadin wrote:At SKBC last year someone ventured the questions to Brennon about how successful most of the Knights were in the real lifes as well as in Amt/bele. He put it out there that most all of them did quite well in all areas of their lives and he thinks that it was part of the reason they do well in fighting. They strive to be better and that helps a lot.

Hope I'm not resurrecting a dead thread, but there's something I remember and I'm not sure where it came from, I want to say Numenor...

Where I came from, when I first started, the guys that were knights were the guys that helped during feast, the people that helped organize events whether it's heralding or whatnot - basically the idea was if this person was transplated in BFE they had the knowledge and experience to start a realm themselves - and dedicated enough they could make that happen, whether it involves heralding, making weapons, checking weapons, training newbs, et cetera. Basically you're a servant to the sport, and you share your knowledge willingly. I believe this was the original root of the concept, as the sport was certainly smaller a few decades ago.

Fighting prowess helps, but I think that was the original route/intention of knighthood when it was younger, to do your best to promote the spirit of the game and help others. Hopefully it continues down that same path.

Allow me to present a totally different point of view:

Being a "knight" is just part of your persona, like being an orc or an elf. If you really, seriously think that people should treat you any differently, even if you DID run ten miles a day, build a hundred weapons, and sew amazing garb, then you're an idiot. This is a foam fighting game and no matter how hard you work at it what you do in Dag will never compare to, say, joining the Marines and doing a tour.

So if you want to be a Knights Templar, Knights Who Say Ni, Knights I Just Made Up, or anything else, you have every bit as much right to be that as a Roman Centurion, Elven Warlord, Samurai, or Peasant. Create any persona you want.

Right, but people will treat you differently based on how you dress and how you behave. And also based on how well you fight.

Dedric wrote:Allow me to present a totally different point of view:

Being a "knight" is just part of your persona, like being an orc or an elf. If you really, seriously think that people should treat you any differently, even if you DID run ten miles a day, build a hundred weapons, and sew amazing garb, then you're an idiot. This is a foam fighting game and no matter how hard you work at it what you do in Dag will never compare to, say, joining the Marines and doing a tour.

So if you want to be a Knights Templar, Knights Who Say Ni, Knights I Just Made Up, or anything else, you have every bit as much right to be that as a Roman Centurion, Elven Warlord, Samurai, or Peasant. Create any persona you want.

So in effect you're telling me anyone should be a knight and not contribute a * thing to the sport?

Over here we awarded nobility titles to people who helped coordinate and run events, it wasn't so much fighting but the people who actually took the time to put **** together instead of being another body on the field, you know, so the rest of us can get together and fight?

Blah. There are plenty of people without titles running around doing that stuff anyway. Although I think rewarding people who do work is great, titles are only one way of doing that. Some of "us" like gift cards to Chili's, Daphne's, or other restaurants...sigh. Or on a serious note, it is better to help them out if you are able. Also, always thank those people. But as to the alternative point of view, I don't care whether people have titles or not, I figure out quickly whether they are worth my time, independent of titles. I can say that most of the people I highly value do not have titles I am aware of. Next time, I recommend you call the title-less "Sir **** Awesome."

Sure, you can arbitrarily give yourself a title, like Knight, or whatever, but if you've done nothing to earn it, you'll get no respect for it. Most people who become knights by process, do it publically. There is a public record of their acievements and why they say I am Sir so and so. Titles do not automatically confer respect, like Ana said, I will judge each person by their own merits. However, when someone has a title like Knight, you tend to expect certain things, like helpfullness. If they are a Mekoot, I expect a certain level of fighting skill. If those people don't have those things, I will laugh at them for taking such a title without the skill/ability to defend it.