Belegarth

Seems like the high-cross is pretty much one of the most if not THE most commonly used of moves, and has very good success against a large number of fighters.

But lately I've been noticing a lot of opinions that this move is pretty awful and rarely advised. It all started with sparring Kenneth a few years back, when he explained that he almost never uses that move. Now I'm reading posts that advocate against it, and Peter's video also bashed the move.

So I ask: is the high-cross one of those moves that can punk pretty much all the beginner and intermediate fighters, but flatout sucks against any advanced fighter who knows his stuff? I know a lot of fighters who use this move almost 90% of the time, and that's not an exaggeration.

So what's the story about this move? What are it's weaknesses vs. strengths, and why is it considered by some elite fighters something you almost never want to do?

From what I could gather on the boards, using the High Cross to the point of obsession is like using a flail. They both pwn newb-slices and unsuspecting veterans of middling proficiency, but they are both highly offensive and don't provide much in the way of defense. They also make you cap in your skill level because you aren't forced to work as hard for your kills against lower-tier fighters, which puts you at a disadvantage against the high-tier fighters whom can see through and easily counter your highly predictable tricks.

Keep in mind that I don't get much practice, so I could be way out in left field here. That's just my interpretation of what I have read about fighting styles on these boards.

what it boils down to is exactly what my vid describes, and like you said the "high end fighter" will just stab you in the armpit everytime you do and giggle about it afterward.

i'm not saying there is never a time to use the high cross, its just alot less then most people use it. especially for an opening, which is what most people use it for.

To expand upon what Peter said, it leaves you very vulnerable and can often result in a simultaneous kill.

I agree, it's definitely a hard habit to break, especially when it keeps killing people.

Derian wrote:I agree, it's definitely a hard habit to break, especially when it keeps killing people.

But those aren't the important people to kill

There are physical reasons why the high cross should be used less frequently than it currently is. The reasons are very long and extremely boring. A more simple way to understand the high cross is to look at it from a mental aspect:

If you are playing paper-rock-scissors, and everybody keeps throwing scissors, what should you become very good at throwing?

I'm impressed Black Cat, that's a pretty good summary of the shot. I firmly believe the shot came to be very prominent through crappy flail fighters. It's part of the standard 1-2 (shoulder-shoulder) combo that everyone teaches.

I was watching an older video of my fighting with Raccoon and I was shocked. I knew I threw the high-cross a lot and came from the high-cross kingdom (Avalon), but I wasn't expecting it to be every other shot. I guess I relied on having fast hand speed and good timing but WOW, how did you guys not beat me more often?

My high-crosses where/are either typically reactionary shots or gauging shots. Someone exposed their shoulder/body/arm by going for a high-cross or leg shot and I would capitalize on it. I also use the shot as a gauge. Measuring how people would react to it, how fast they where, and at what level to play at. This played up my fast adapting nature.

If I blocked correctly, I could pickup a return high-cross on my shield. This was due to leaning and taking the point of my heater and putting up past my armpit.

I'm going to chime in, since I bring a wierd perspective here. I'm left-handed, so 90% of the time I don't have anything to do with high crosses. When I run into another lefty, though, I'm in a weird spot. There are only a handful of shots I know how to throw against another lefty, mostly the hip stab, the shoulder wrap, the leg pick, and the high/short crosses. Of all these, the short cross is the most effective by far. Except when I hit either of the two other lefties in my realm who are way better than me. I get munched, bad, most of the time. I've discovered that the only way to beat either of these guys is to mix up my shots, especially working in the shoulder wraps and leg picks. I think this is possibly a little microcosm of what most righties deal with. Crosses work fine, up until you hit the big guys. Then, you're screwed unless you are able to mix it up. I could be wrong, but that seems likely to me. Once you meet someone who's just plain better than you at throwing that shot, they're going to time you, outspeed you, and just generally mess you up until you figure out something else that works.

My .02, anyway.

you got it slagar.

it is percentages people, you take 3 different people

10% FIGHTER, first event newb, knows rules and a few shots
50% FIGHTER, starting second season, got some skills, seen lots, spars quite a bit, maybe 7 events under thier belt
90% FIGHTER, top of the heap, your basic peter, bahkdar, galin, whoever destroys your local practice

throw the high cross against each and you get a different result

newby, gets an easy kill, they talk about you, you are so great.
midlevel, they probibly block it, and return with a cross, then you throw another and get the kill. they are angry and think that if only they were faster they could be better, and beat you.
vet, they weapon block, shield edge your arm pit and smack the crap out of your short ribs with either a short cross(different than a high cross), or a wrap to the hip.

the shot will quickly get you to the middle of the heap, then you will sit there until you learn how to fight differently. it promotes plateus, a fighters worst nightmare.

just my thoughts.

Bo.

I like you, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter or periodical.



Well said though.

Wow. That was probably the best collection of supremely insightful replies I've ever seen in such a short span. You guys rock. Thank you.

The high cross, or maybe its lower counterpart, can be used to draw a block, then recycle and chop the blocking arm.

You need to see it in person to really know what I am talking about--it's in the Advanced Sword and Shield on my YouTube channel, DagorhirFighting. I don't use it a whole lot, at least not in battles, but it does work against guys who know one way to defend the high cross but haven't mastered all of the elements.

i'm not gunna lie magnus you can achieve what you are suggesting with just a short cross rather then throwing the High cross. leading with a high cross is a great way to get pounded like a post...

I think "short cross" is what I meant, but I am not familiar with the term. What would you call a "short cross"?

A short cross is a straight shot across the body, with the sword landing about parallel to the ground, on the opponent's shoulder, bicep, or upper ribs. The tip of the sword should not be pointing towards the ground.

A high cross is a shot across the body, intended to strike anywhere between the armpit and belt. The sword strikes the opponent at a steep angle, with the tip pointing to the ground a few feet behind the opponent.

The body mechanics behind throwing these shots are pretty notably different, as well.

Coming from Amtgard, i was surprised by the number of high crosses that are thrown by belegarth fighters. At my Amtgard park, you'd literally get made fun of for throwing a high cross, but when i began Bel, i seemed to be all that anyone was throwing. Then again, i also saw much larger shields and longer weapons. But i'm happy to see that its moving away from barn door and broom handle, with PtQ and others leading it. I loved seeing a smaller punch and 36" sword, made me nostalgic. Though it seems logically to me that high crosses are incredibely simple to block, i get killed with them all the time.

Don't sword block, shield block and counterswing.

Yeah, thats the logical answer to me, i just can never get myself to do it. I need to fight more often and have more experience.

Soo Ma Tai wrote:Don't sword block, shield block and counterswing.

I don't advise this. Moving your shield to block your sword-side will pull you out of position and block your angles of attack.

Block your sword side with your sword. Moving your shield around is a very situational activity.

I understand where you are coming from Brennon. IMO, you are better off to block and strike at the same time, than you are to block, and then strike.
It's all a timing thing, instead of one, two, it's just one.

you can block it at the same time, if you have to do something with your shield put the rim of it in his armpit or kidney, but you always block the shot with your weapon, then its a matter of following his motion back for the stab, slot shot, darkside, etc.

i agree with B any extra movement with your shield is a fast way to get you killed.

and yea a shot cross is mostly like Slagar explained it. the main difference is that in a highcross your elbow ends up pointing up toward the sky where as the short cross your elbow stays pointed down allowing you to maintain your guard. does that make sense?

Yeah, I think I meant short cross.

I often do the "high slot" attack against shield users, which is a different move that does not open one up for a counterattack. The only problem with it, I think, is that it requires one to be able to use dynamic footwork in order to get it to work, which meant I was not really able to use it effectively the weekend before last, since the snow was about 2' deep and moving feet was not really a possibility.

p_quick wrote:i agree with B any extra movement with your shield is a fast way to get you killed.

Anytime anyone asks for fighting advice, this is where I start. A good defense is a good offense. Moving your shield more than 3-4 inches any direction will probably result in a kill if your opponent is competent.

Question about the two different ways I've seen the high cross used. One seems like a good way to get you killed, but the other seems pretty decent, or not.

Obviously, when you twist your body and reach forward and across, with the tip of the sword pointed down and your elbow to the sky, that's the one that gets you killed.

But what about the kind I've seen the more advanced fighters throw, which is when you step toward and sort of to the side of the enemy, and throw the high-cross, but you keep your arm and elbow at your head rather than reaching out of position across your body? Maybe this is the high slot and I'm confusing them...

all high crosses will result with the same returns, the pocket/armpit stab. as an opener anyway. keep your elbow down protect your arm.

there are times to use the high cross but not many. and never as an opener or a standby shot

I think a cross is more or a shoulder, upper arm shot while the slot is aimed more for the armpit, torso or possibly the hip. Can someone confirm or deny that?

Stepping back in the conversation a bit, it seems the consensus is that a better way to start a "weak side" combo is a short cross. I think see the advantages over the high cross - the attacking arm pops back to a ready position for a quicker 2nd shot or sword arm block.

However, when I get ready to throw the 2nd shot in a short cross combo, I often find myself rotating around the outside of the opponent's shield arm and whipping down his/her back from the highest point of the return motion from the short cross. The resulting shot gets a ton of force (for some reason, my hips are falling at that point - probably due to my bad form on the short cross), but only ends up clipping the opponent's back if the opponent moved his/her shield slightly on the short cross. The shot ends up working quite a bit at a crazy angle (and occasionally works with an exagerated short-cross feint that provokes shield movement), but I wonder if that is due to the inexperience / shield-movement of the opponent.

I guess my question is whether there is a better 2nd shot in a combo following a short-cross when facing an opponent that doesn't move his/her shield on the initial short-cross.

Kageshiro wrote:I guess my question is whether there is a better 2nd shot in a combo following a short-cross when facing an opponent that doesn't move his/her shield on the initial short-cross.

a pocket stab, the flat chop to the shield side shoulder is a great shot, if they don't move their shield they are probably flat footed so put your shield into their weapon side armpit and turn their shoulders yourself.

watch this vid it might help show you what i mean about the pocket stab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1uhJqF_ ... re=channel

that vid is priceless, pocket stab to shoudler drop anyone. over and over. it is a brutal setup, if one fails you are bound to have the other.

Not at all. That's just what happens when you try to shield-block your sword-side. It's why my cross works so well. All you do to stop that is sword-brush out the stab, and follow it home to the shoulder/elbow. It only works over and over and over and over, until people stop jumping their shield over to block it. Right Bo?

p_quick wrote:a pocket stab, the flat chop to the shield side shoulder is a great shot, if they don't move their shield they are probably flat footed so put your shield into their weapon side armpit and turn their shoulders yourself.

watch this vid it might help show you what i mean about the pocket stab

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1uhJqF_ ... re=channel

Thanks. Very helpful.

Seems like the combo probably works best against punches held far enough away from the body to make a "slot" for the initial pocket stab. Would a short cross work better as an opener against a heater held in a closer stance?

Also, what is the counter? Darkside? An active weapon block to the outside and shot to the extended arm?

I have been thinking about the pocket stab for a little bit now, and have essentially broken it down into two situations for me. The first situation is primarily when they over-commit to the stab. In that situation, its not hard to guide the stab to the side and blast them in whatever manner I wish.

The second situation is when they properly attempt to pocket stab me. In my mind, the pocket stab's greatest weakness is that it requires a relatively high positioning for success. The primary options on a pocket stab are the pocket stab itself, short chop on the shield-side shoulder, and a wrap on that side. Its typical(not theoretical) reach is also a little on the short side.

By my thinking, it seems to suffer from a curious vulnerability to fighters coming in low from long range. Keeping a high guard makes it more difficult to be stabbed, while swinging low makes it very hard for them to close in cleanly, which denies the range they want to be in. It seems they want your shield in one of two positions, and the best option from a stylistically different mentality is to deny both options to them through use of range.

I'm pretty sure if I was a bit faster, I could take more advantage of what I'm thinking about. Right now though, I'm just not fast enough to do it. The idea has some structural defects-namely swinging at the legs- but I think there's a bit of merit in this particular situation. You just have to be aware of the spots where the pocket stab can flow into.

I don't think you've been able to land a clean stab on me from that side in a while, have you PQ?

Kenneth wrote:The second situation is when they properly attempt to pocket stab me. In my mind, the pocket stab's greatest weakness is that it requires a relatively high positioning for success. The primary options on a pocket stab are the pocket stab itself, short chop on the shield-side shoulder, and a wrap on that side. Its typical(not theoretical) reach is also a little on the short side.

The cross shoulder stab (pocket stab) is very situational in my mind. I only use it when my opponent is non-reactive (too scared/dumb/new/slow) to move or when my opponent is walking forward rather than sliding forward.

Let me emphasize that last bit, because it's very important. I cross shoulder stab people when they switch legs or square their shoulders while in my middle to long range. As I'm sure you can imagine, this eliminates the short reach of the stab, and lowers the height of the required angle for it to be successful. The pocket stab is a fantastic answer to people who walk while in combat rather than slide.

Brennon EH wrote:

Kenneth wrote:The second situation is when they properly attempt to pocket stab me. In my mind, the pocket stab's greatest weakness is that it requires a relatively high positioning for success. The primary options on a pocket stab are the pocket stab itself, short chop on the shield-side shoulder, and a wrap on that side. Its typical(not theoretical) reach is also a little on the short side.

The cross shoulder stab (pocket stab) is very situational in my mind. I only use it when my opponent is non-reactive (too scared/dumb/new/slow) to move or when my opponent is walking forward rather than sliding forward.

Let me emphasize that last bit, because it's very important. I cross shoulder stab people when they switch legs or square their shoulders while in my middle to long range. As I'm sure you can imagine, this eliminates the short reach of the stab, and lowers the height of the required angle for it to be successful. The pocket stab is a fantastic answer to people who walk while in combat rather than slide.

You took the words right outta my mouth B.

I also never through any shot except for maybe a short cross as a standby shot, i let things develop and put my opponent into the position where the right swing fits the fight, much like brennen's "The pocket stab is a fantastic answer to people who walk while in combat rather than slide."

Is there a 'proper term' for the Darkside made into a stab?

The "under-boob" stab if you will?

Another thing to point out...i stab lead ALOT...i also stand left foot foward in bel / dag. Its a safe opener..because the most open thing to return to is a cross. If you return with a shield side shoulder or just about anything else i switch to your shield side shoulder and then grind...usually switching back to the stab or hip wrap....very quick and painless. Also if the grind goes to long just switcht o the low leg and shield bash as they drop...step over them and finish it..... Pretty basic stuff.


Spyn

I did some sparring today and noticed how much I do actually throw the high-cross. I feel like this is my first year fighting, not my ninth.

I come from Amtgard and even there my friends will tell you for a good fighter (at 41 years old calling myself top end is pure arrogance, anymore) I throw too many high crosses. Even I admit it. In my Bel park, I have seen that nearly everyone throws more than I do. Given that perspective, I will offer my views.

The high cross isn’t per se a bad shot. What it is, is a shot with some good and some very bad features. The good feature is that it goes to the most open part of an opponent (at least a right-handed shield-man). That’s the only major good feature but it is real and not to be ignored. The very bad features are that it exposes you a lot. There are ways to minimize this, like the what this thread is calling the mid cross but the fact is it exposes you a whole lot and since its not an exceptionally quick shot, you are quite exposed for too long in many cases.

So why would a good fighter ever use a high cross? (just watch some videos and you will see plenty of the best using it now and again). Well the good feature of the shot is real. If you can minimize the very bad features enough and maybe slightly increase the good features, the shot becomes viable against more than just the lower to mid level fighters. And by viable, I mean one of the variety of shots worth mixing into a rotation.

The main keys to minimizing the very bad is to make * sure your opponent’s blade is going where you want. You can use pure speed and placement on mid level guys like Bo said but against good fighters, you won’t out speed them. You need to feint them. Get them swinging for an apparent opening or out of position for a block. Crosses may be slow relative to some shots but a well used feint can certainly give you the time you need.

Not that I am arguing with the learned sticks above but that’s why you see a bad shot work even on good players and why I don’t favor completely removing the shot from anyone’s repertoire.

The high cross has it's occasional use. It is, however, normally thrown as an opener. And it's the worst opener in the world. Literally, it's the slowest shot with the most exposure you can throw.

That is the major point here. I use it occasionally, but only under the kinds of circumstances Michael was describing--when it doesn't seem likely that my opponent is going to be able to hit the parts of me that I expose.

There are other variations, most notably repositioning one's shield to block the opening (best used with a medium-small punch shield), and some of those can be used as opening shots as well. What is really hilarious, though, is when two fighters both lead with a high cross at the exact same time; two guys in my unit, who are brothers, did that all the time 2-3 years ago. Everyone laughed whenever it happened.

Illiak and I were sparring one day. We go to the point where we were both leading with a step-in shield-dip-by-crouching-slightly onside leg shot and following it up with a high cross. It was all about timing and my ability to block my legs for those times I actually beat him. It was pretty funny, though, to be throwing the exact same shots at one another. Most of the kills were an arm hit during the near-simo high cross and the shot after that.

/rambling

I, like most, should throw fewer high crosses, though I've been trying to work short crosses in to my repertoire recently, but I have had no contact with higher-level (non-newb) fighters since just before Christmas...

Here is a variant that I was using trying to break one of my guys from high-crossing so much.

Every time he didn't wound with a high-cross, he was dead.

Instead of using the high-cross you're dead theory which just encourages you not throw it, this encouraged him to be observant when fighting and identify when it was useful to throw versus when it wasn't.

I find it the move to only be usefule 4 or 5 swings into a fight If i get someone off balance and going backwards or can get in their grill It works great.

When people high cross i block step in and side wrap their leg then take the kill but im lazy alot and usualy just go for the kill

high-cross got that Rufio kid killed in "Hook"

No it didn't, poor blocking and Dustin Hoffman's "Weapon Finesse" feat got that Rufio kid killed.

isnt that a high cross?

Nope hook struck with the false edge, thus not a high cross. Also Ruffio tried to block everywhere except the stab. Newb lol.

Anyways, so what I have been having trouble with is High Cross vs. Short Cross. I have been consciously throwing the Short cross however those watching tell me it still looks like I at least wanted to throw the high cross but tried to tighten it up last second. So what is the proper way to throw a short cross and make it 100% distinguishable from a high cross

Start it from pyramid guard or something instead of some Oldcastle-style position. It's just a straight cross-body shot from the same place you'd throw a straight same-side shot (like a shoulder pop).

So whats the difference between Old Castle and pyramid. I have never heard of an Old Castle guard

I mean, don't bring your sword hand back by your ear over your shoulder or something before you throw the cross. Oldcastle guard is a super-exaggerated "* sword" position.