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Slagar wrote:That was my reaction, too. It's basically the SCA, as far as I can tell. Few differences, but yeah.
Actually still pretty far of from what the SCA does. For starters they have an assumed minimum armour and this is an armour as worn standard.
Part of the reason that virtually no one would support this is that it would require way too much investment to play. The reason we use the gear we do is because forcing people to drop a few hundred dollars on equipment is a huge barrier to entry for our main demographics. It works fine for the SCA crowd, they're the sort who can afford it. Right now, I'm a college student. You get the idea.
sadly that seems to be the biggest problem with this.
Other than that, though, I'd be game. I'm a stick-jock, for better or worse, and this sounds like it'd be interesting, if nothing else. I'm not sure I'd prefer it, but I'd try it.
Winfang wrote:Just because this system allows for head shots does not make it SCA.
The larger dollar figures everyone associates with SCA is from people pricing out their dream armor. The armor required in SCA to participate can be made from various materials such as plastic, carpet, leather, steel, aluminum, etc., many of which can be acquired for free or a small fee. The only requirement that cannot be made out of alternate materials is the helm and the cost for a new basic helm on Ebay is $60 plus shipping. Also, the cost of an SCA weapon is less then then the cost of the equivalent Edhellen.
The hero Belegarth deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we'll hunt him because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A Viking *.
theancient wrote:1. Flails must have 12oz+ heads and not exceed 36" overall.
2. Shields may not have faces larger than 8 square feet.
3. Weapons intended to emulate blades with discrete edges must weigh at least one pound (16oz) for single-handed weapons, two pounds (32oz) for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "slashing/hacking weapons."
4. Weapons intended to emulate clubs, maces, morningstars, goedendags and the like must weigh at least 2lb for single-handed weapons and 4lb for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "mass weapons." (Axes are also included in this category.)
5. Armor must be constructed from steel, iron, brass, bronze, or hardened 12oz+ leather.
6. Plate armor is proof against arrows, single-handed thrusts, and single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.
7. All other armor is proof against single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.
8. Helmets and gorgets are required and head and neck hits are legal.
9. All garb and weapons must be drawn from or clearly inspired by historical and fantasy sources that have been pre-approved.
10. No hit, from any weapon (arrows included) shall be considered "good" unless it lands with substantial force. Archers may no longer call their shots."
Brenna Haldana wrote:
I joined SCA in college and could have easily afforded to start swinging rattan after a month of saving beer money. Plus, your local realm usually will have loaner gear until you can afford your own. I ended up spending more money when I switched to Bel, then I had in SCA. College is definitely not an excuse to rule out rattan.
theancient wrote:goedendags
FTFYtheancient wrote:If we really wanted to make ££££££££ less cheesy, here's how we'd do it:
1. All intelligent* participants** must fight with an absurdly counterbalanced two handed sword or spear. The reason for this is because:
2. Everyone with a survival instinct must also wear plate armor constructed from steel, iron, brass, bronze which is invulnerable to all attacks except from the above mentioned absurdly counterbalanced two handed swords and spears.
* Intelligence in this case is pretty relative. I mean, why are you playing ££££££££, when you could be joining the SCA, Belegarth, Dagorhir, Amtgard, Melee, or sitting at home playing World of ££££££££?
** Participants with no sense (hereinafter referred to as scrubs) have the option of fighting with one handed weapons and bows, both of which are completely ineffective against everyone wearing plate armor. I mean seriously, you might as well just give up. Scrubs also have the option of wearing non-plate armor which will confer protection from fellow scrubs.
some internet comedian wrote:If we really wanted to make ££££££££ less cheesy
Arrakis wrote:Interesting.
Also, you can post the names of other games on our forums. We won't get mad at you. Also, Belegarth is 9 letters, Dagorhir is 8, Amtgard is 7, Darkon is 6, Quest and MELEE are 5, and NERO is 4, so, it's generally pretty easy to figure out which game we're talking about.
yeah I figured you could...just being polite. Just curious but do you mean the maui quest?
This list seems like a good set of reasons why things AREN'T more realistic. I'd love for more people to understand that THAT is the way armor actually works and that they should quit trying to nerf (hardened) leather or say that single green should only go through leather or something. Plate is PROOF against EVERYTHING, or * near, especially when worn over a good aketon. A poleax may damage you, a warhammer might break small plates, and if they can get the tip into the articulation, you can be stabbed. But shots from an arming sword are going to do nothing. And even chain+gambeson is going to ignore most sword strokes, at least for a time.
Agreed
Anyway, an interesting list. I'd not mind seeing Dag adopt a max length rule for their flails the same way Bel has (40" for us) and I'd love to see Bel implement a min flail head weight rule like Dag's and I wouldn't mind a bit seeing unhardened 12 oz leather removed from the list of passing armor in both sports (I play both, by the way). Too, I'd LOVE 10 to go through (calling your shots? Lame) and seeing plate proof against arrows wouldn't hurt my feeling any.
My thoughts.
Also, Slagar: I've sewn myself a gambeson and am working on a full set of hardened leather limbs with a plastic brig body armor. With a basic helm, I'm gonna be fully armored for under 250, and that's WAY more armor than you really need to start. I've already been fighting at practices with (ill-fitting) loaner armor!
theancient wrote:Arrakis wrote:Interesting.
Also, you can post the names of other games on our forums. We won't get mad at you. Also, Belegarth is 9 letters, Dagorhir is 8, Amtgard is 7, Darkon is 6, Quest and MELEE are 5, and NERO is 4, so, it's generally pretty easy to figure out which game we're talking about.
yeah I figured you could...just being polite. Just curious but do you mean the maui quest?Arrakis wrote:This list seems like a good set of reasons why things AREN'T more realistic. I'd love for more people to understand that THAT is the way armor actually works and that they should quit trying to nerf (hardened) leather or say that single green should only go through leather or something. Plate is PROOF against EVERYTHING, or * near, especially when worn over a good aketon. A poleax may damage you, a warhammer might break small plates, and if they can get the tip into the articulation, you can be stabbed. But shots from an arming sword are going to do nothing. And even chain+gambeson is going to ignore most sword strokes, at least for a time.
Agreed
iskatyel wrote:The following is just my feedback for such a system. Done right (i.e. adopting all of my suggestions, of course ) I would be very interested in trying such a thing, but do not think it should be imposed on Belegarth; it's just a new system that is more martially realistic than bel/dag or SCA.
I for one am not suggesting that this be imposed on anyone...its just a work in progress...there are places where there is no Dag/Bel/Amt/etc.theancient wrote:1. Flails must have 12oz+ heads and not exceed 36" overall.
Flails already sting like crazy. SCA doesn't even allow flails (or they didn't anyway) because they could cave in a 14ga helmet without much weight.
The SCA has started allowing flails again, just so you.2. Shields may not have faces larger than 8 square feet.
lol. Don't you want a weight requirement now, though?
Actually this is a daft rule, upon reflection...3. Weapons intended to emulate blades with discrete edges must weigh at least one pound (16oz) for single-handed weapons, two pounds (32oz) for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "slashing/hacking weapons."
Making weapons heavier so they are more realistic is only part of the equation. Wind resistance is massively different with our gear, slipping on the blade is very different, side vs. edge flex is very different, etc. Weight minimums are important, but 'realistically' weighted foam padded swords may not emulate the performance of a real sword as well as a padded sword that is not as 'realistically' heavy. Personally I feel that these weights are still a bit low, but I don't think raising them any higher will make a dramatic difference.4. Weapons intended to emulate clubs, maces, morningstars, goedendags and the like must weigh at least 2lb for single-handed weapons and 4lb for two-handed weapons. These weapons are "mass weapons." (Axes are also included in this category.)
I like the idea of requiring 'mass' weapons to be heavier and have further limited flex.5. Armor must be constructed from steel, iron, brass, bronze, or hardened 12oz+ leather.
Most of this is already required in Bel, but you would ignore unhardened leather. What about a 'realistic' padded jack, if we're going all super-realistic? Oh yes most definitively we should include padded armours...always bugged me that these games didn't allow them.6. Plate armor is proof against arrows, single-handed thrusts, and single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.
Very gameplay unbalancing, but could provide greater realism IF proper attacks against plate armored foes are encouraged (joints, neck, backs of legs) and allowed. This, of course, leads to safety concerns. This is where it's not at all like the SCA because the SCA focuses on single-handed hacking/slashing attacks that cut through plate armor.7. All other armor is proof against single-handed slashing/hacking attacks.
This makes single-handed weapons pretty useless and armor pretty mandatory unless the above types of attacks or two-handed weapons are the primary focus of the game.8. Helmets and gorgets are required and head and neck hits are legal.
If you are still going to encourage unarmored fighters, which seems unlikely from 7 & 8, then non-historical helmets and gorgets would need to be allowed. I like the idea of including the head, but it needs to be adequately protected.9. All garb and weapons must be drawn from or clearly inspired by historical and fantasy sources that have been pre-approved.
Yeah, so the fantasy gestapo gets to approve whether it's Tolkien enough? Unless you restrict to history, which is already open to enough interpretation, this is silly and authoritarian. Just make it a sport with prescribed uniforms. To true, see this is why I was looking for suggestions.10. No hit, from any weapon (arrows included) shall be considered "good" unless it lands with substantial force. Archers may no longer call their shots."
'Substantial' sounds like an invitation for all kinds of rhinohiding to me. Arrows would have to hit harder (everyone's helmeted=might work), can't hurt steel plated fighters anyway so maybe archers wouldn't need to call shots, but there is a good reason why they do it now.
All in all, something like this is interesting. I most like the idea of including the head as a target. While you're at it, better start including hands and feet as historically they were both very important targets as well.
Arrakis wrote:theancient wrote:Arrakis wrote:Interesting.
Also, you can post the names of other games on our forums. We won't get mad at you. Also, Belegarth is 9 letters, Dagorhir is 8, Amtgard is 7, Darkon is 6, Quest and MELEE are 5, and NERO is 4, so, it's generally pretty easy to figure out which game we're talking about.
yeah I figured you could...just being polite. Just curious but do you mean the maui quest?Arrakis wrote:This list seems like a good set of reasons why things AREN'T more realistic. I'd love for more people to understand that THAT is the way armor actually works and that they should quit trying to nerf (hardened) leather or say that single green should only go through leather or something. Plate is PROOF against EVERYTHING, or * near, especially when worn over a good aketon. A poleax may damage you, a warhammer might break small plates, and if they can get the tip into the articulation, you can be stabbed. But shots from an arming sword are going to do nothing. And even chain+gambeson is going to ignore most sword strokes, at least for a time.
Agreed
FTFY.
No, I mean the New England Quest. But yeah.
Zwei ap Owen wrote:Juicer sho' nuff loves tuh shuffle.
MagnusofDregoth wrote:Hey, Mr Theancient, I was actually the one who posted all that stuff, so I will chime in.
First off, I was not being serious. I do not think Dagorhir or Belegarth really needs to change, at least not substantially. I've been doing this for almost 8 years now and I haven't really had a problem with the game as played except for archery. And even that is manageable.
Second, that's not an exhaustive list, largely because of the above reason. I had no intention of making it a feasible or plausible set of rules, so don't stick to the details. I was really just griping (but maybe too subtly) about how people tend to make arbitrary distinctions between "just right" and "not realistic/hard-hitting enough."
Third, it was in reference to protests that Dagorhir is getting too "tappy," when tappiness was only vaguely defined.
Arrakis wrote:Anyway, an interesting list. I'd not mind seeing Dag adopt a max length rule for their flails the same way Bel has (40" for us) and I'd love to see Bel implement a min flail head weight rule like Dag's and I wouldn't mind a bit seeing unhardened 12 oz leather removed from the list of passing armor in both sports (I play both, by the way).
Elwrath wrote:Arrakis wrote:Anyway, an interesting list. I'd not mind seeing Dag adopt a max length rule for their flails the same way Bel has (40" for us) and I'd love to see Bel implement a min flail head weight rule like Dag's and I wouldn't mind a bit seeing unhardened 12 oz leather removed from the list of passing armor in both sports (I play both, by the way).
Not to be too technical but i thought dag had a max 44" flail rule and either their flail heads had to be a certain size or a certain weight.
Also i have to totally disagree with you about the unhardened leather thing. Our "game" is pretty much a "sport" and having a ton of people running around in hardened leather just makes for more rhinohiding by accident, because my perfectly good swing which unarmored people will complain about isn't even felt..or is 2 light for someone with hardened leather...i'd say for the sake of belegarth game play and the flow of combat, hardened armor shouldn't be allowed...just my opinion though. I'm a stick-jock not a realist...
MoA wrote:4.2.4 - Flails:
hide
4.2.4.1 - The ball of a flail must have a minimum circumference of 16 inches (measured at its narrowest point) and weigh a minimum weight of 4 oz.
4.2.4.2 - The end of flail haft must follow the 2 inch rule.
4.2.4.3 - The maximum “chain” length on a flail is 6 inches.
4.2.4.4 - The rope or cloth of the flail “chain” must be completely covered with segmented foam (rings) to reduce the risk of injury if the chain strikes a fighter and reduce the risk of the chain wrapping a weapon or limb.
4.2.4.5 - Flails are always blue weapons regardless of length.
because my perfectly good swing which unarmored people will complain about isn't even felt..or is 2 light for someone with hardened leather...
Forkbeard wrote:Sufficent force is part ofour rules. We don't use it, but I think we should. It would stop the kind of discrepencies in our combat that Elwrath bought up. When people got hit and honestly didn't feel it, they wouldn't be looked at as a cheater. We say we work from the Honor system. This isn't true when heralds call people dead becuase it looks to them, from their outside angle, someone got hit.
Stahlgrim wrote:I don't know why everyone thinks that it takes thousands of dollars to get started in the sca.I have a new guy armoring up down here. $40.00 for metal for a helmet we are putting it together in my shop it can be put together with basic tools; a ballpeen hammer,and a tree stump. $5.00 for a plastic barrel and $10.00 for cloth to make a tunic to cover said plastic. some $$$ for rivets,thread,etc. all in all you can get into sca armour for under $100.00.First thing you need to do is ask who in your area makes the stuff then talk to them. also most sca fighters have old armor sitting in a closet,garage, shed,or a storage unit and are willing to let it go for cheap or free just to help get guys armored up.
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